If/when ostruppen get nerfed, this will deal with any pgrens hitting the field too early
This will bring VSL in 99% of the games. If VSL get nerfed, then hell I wont be surprised to see Ass.grens into T2.
Problem is not with skipping, problem is that grens overall suck ass. This is the single reason of all this BS that is happening.
Osttroopens at this point showing better combat perfomance vs UFS\UKF then grenadiers, while on paper they should be worst and cheaper.
As a raw stats bag, they are fine, in actuall gameplay they objectively suck. Input requared to make them work is just so much highter then the output you get from them, that its just pointless to chose them over litteraly any other option avaible.
Hell, I belive we even saw during one of the tournaments, Osttroppen WITH T1 build for sniper, but even in this case no grens were thrown into the mix.
But I left wondering why according to ppl like Stormjaeger, who shouts that everyone are noobs and grens (with LMG) are good option, but still in a competitive play noone bothering getting them.
Probably because Ost+T1 skip is IWIN always  |
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Questinable honestly, if we take a teamgames into a perspective, and consider that OKW with Spec ops will be actually teamplaying with some-one who has call-in arty, the it might be frustrating.
But again, for closer to the frontline, you can use fusiliers flare which is great, for behind the lines howi bombing, you can use luft recon.
I think the only real dangerious combination, is when its used with arty that requare vision and its not plane based (since it will be shot down anyway, without major assault).
At the same time comander is mediocre at best, its only good if you want to pull out something with your teammate, other then that its kinda pointless. Since pretty much only unique abilities are flares, radio silence and com.panther.
Flares are strong, radio silence is a gimic and command panther is nothing special. |
You think vCoH and CoH2 were designed for competitive players?
To be frank here, if we take vCoH, original US vs Wehr macth up, then it was competitive and balanced, even being completly asymentrical. Aswell as over-all vCoH had much less pure RNG mechanics. Not strate of the bat, but nowhere near how much Sov vs Ost was fucked up.
OF and TOW pretty much responsible for all the BS vCoH had, like roos spam and overall blob nature of PE and British. |
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I just want to add something about casuality. While it cant be denyed that during most of its time coh2 had a lot of casual mechanincs, which were questinable competitively and indeed blowing up blobs with democharges or shooting sturm across the map without any collision were fun, BUT.
A lot of ppl here look at this casuality from a perspetive of player who at least have basic knowlage of the game and how it works.
Imagine awarage Joe, who decided to pick up game and just play it, even casually. Excluding learning curve, fallowing more casual desing, with "OP this countered by OP that", his experience wont be plesant. Like at all.
Its kinda funny in a sence that only true tryhards in general will benifit from this kind of casuality and design, because they will master this 1 one unit or one strat and will be still playing competitively. I mean hell, tryhards were winning consistently against OKW\USF\UKF on their releases.
While ppl who just want to pick up the game and play it will suffer from it.
In other words, properly balanced and fair game, is more casual and casual friendly. |
I think it's time to make a separate mode a long time ago: call "E-sport" whatever you like. In which everything is completely removed so that it would be an absolutely sterile game. No RNG, no falling weapons or abandoned tanks, no blizzards or anything like that, no critical damage. Because people complain about it and want to remove it all. I am fine with all these factors and I want to play the game as it was originally built.
Why you jump into this in a first place I dont get it. Its either "full no RNG e-sport" or "fun". As I was saying, playing with broken stuff isnt fun. Game can be fun and balanced at the same time, if for someone "fun" means playing with broken stuff, then its a bad model to follow in a first place.
And regarding RNG, there was a topic about it. RNG can follow two models, one being poker like predictable and readable RNG, and one can be pure dise rolling without any player efford involved.
For excample lets say we could have squad dropping weapons at any point during the fight or we can have it dropping only after half-squad is dead. First one being a dise roll, second one being a proper and balanced RNG.
In other words when RNG and mechanics done right, nothing stops it from existing alongside competitiveness.
On a side note I've also liked blizzards and deep snow/mud mechanics, but they were put in the game without proper thinking. |
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I think a lot of ppl are overthinking idea of assymentrical balance and fun. You can look at insanly popular Age of Empires, which is old RTS from 1999 and it still has insane player base.
The main rule of a any successful RTS is when its fair for everybody, even if its assymentrical.
Steel division failed blantly because of this back in the day. Game was fun, but stupidly imbalanced towards air and some of the divisions.
Its just not fun when you have to be beaten for 10 minutes and later on you get a shotgun to shoot in the crotch the guy who beat you up earlier. At best it would be fun mixed with frustration, and worst just frustaration even if you've won.
Balance of coh2 right now shifting towards overall more fair environment, and it means some standatization and less flavor, let it be. |
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Fun is very subjective thing. Playing UKF on release was fun because whole game felt like it was a meme video, but I hardly doubt that players who was subjected to my fun had a great time.
Die hard 1v1 esports guys can play what ever they want, but you shouldn't forget that if only one side is having fun other side would just leave. You know, having mini gun Sherman or 100000 damage zis guns because of the FHQ was also fun.
Also ask how much fun ppl get, when they got rammed+il2 bombed, yes it's fun for the one who is doing it.
And if casual player is not playing fully for memes or he don't care if he win or lose, in other words have at least small competitive nature in him, all he would get from this is negative motions and frustration.
Coh2 actually never was objective fun for everybody, all its fun was in abusing broken or overpowered units, which means that game itself its mechanics and gameplay never were the source of fun in a first place.
At least now it's closer to the proper RTS, where both sides can have fun not just one. |
But I disagree with some other points. There are indeed different roles in a OST and SU army so why should power be evenly spread across units that are in different roles?
You didnt get me. Here I give you an excample. T70 is holding soviet mid game from collapsing. Why, lets say, soviets cant have their T4 cons grade, be cut in half (p1 sats boosts, p2 7men or vise versa) and part of it unlocked upon T3 build. In this case T70 could be well deserved be tonned down, in return of other cons earlier buffs.
Same with Grenadiers. They could become more self sufficient against tommies and rifles (not stronger then them, but just to pose at least some considarable threat) and in return MG42 could lose some of its suppression. MG42+Grens combo would be just as strong as before, but balance of power of this combination would be evenly spread across both units.
I'm not sure about P2W tbh, since we past that state. P2W commanders were on release, but speaking of them, lets bring ost since it abusing commanders the most now.
This situation came to be, again because in ost early game 99% of the job is done by the MG42, which means that skips of T1 are just a normal practice since in general, what you get in return is less then what you get by skipping it and using commander call-ins.
Also I want to add that, in all honestly there are no oldfation OP stuff, like lets say landmatters and emplacement commanders which went into a tourney being objectively broken and overpowered.
Even osttroopens and VSL they are not batshit broken or OP, and winning game just because they are picked, but more like because they are hands down better then your stock options.
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My main complain about balance in general, is that some factions have their entire power located in one unit.
EFA suffers from this much more, then WFA armies. Because WFA armiers were made over the idea, that core of your army is infanty in a first place (like it should be).
Meaning that be it Tommies\Rifles\Volks you always rely on them in first place, supporting them with other tools awaible. Even if we put raw stats aside, there is honestly nothing in all thouse 3 factions which in case of loosing will skyrocket you into insane disadvantage. Well its only arguably OKW stumpios, but because of the healing\repairing locked on them, depending on your tech and its more of a tech problem then unit one.
If we look on EFA armies, its an opposite situation. Whole Ostheer early game based on MG42, whole soviet mid game based on T70. Loosing 1 unit, skyrockets you into disadvantage.
This whole idea is that Ost T1 is arguably effectively usable only with MG42 and whole soviet mid game is concentrated in T70. It backfires in both directions, where one can master usage of such units and make playing against them very frustating, aswell as player who didnt master them will be constantly loosing.
My idea is that, for both ostheer and soviets, power should be evenly spread across units, rather then having concentration of it in one or the other unit. |
You're inventing new philosophy when none is needed.
Actually, i'm not inventing new philosophy, I'm staying close to the original philosophy, where MG42 was a support unit for grens, not grens were support for the MG42. There is key diffrence here.
New philosophy led to the fact that MG42 became T70 of ostheer and other "ajustements" led to pretty much all ostheer cheese that exists right now. With skips, rushes and call-in meta.
IF grens were a backbone, or at least a decent half of a backbone, for Ostheer, then pretty much all cheese could have been easily adjusted and less frustrating.
Honestly I just want to see at this point how well deserved nerf of VSL\Fast PGs\Osttroopens and other bandage fixes, will open ppls eyes on how "gold standart of a faction desing" was cheesing its way to the top for quite a while now.
BTW in 3v3 2 well microwed MG42 into fast G43 PGs works much better then all grenadiers supporters combined.
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