Ppl complained that T34\76 is only good is for ram, while ram is beeing stupid ability. Now ppl complain that ram is behind vet1.
Realistically speaking, RAM right now is usable only to cheese it out with IL-2 bombinb\Strafe run. Other then that you are not gonna need or use ram on regular bases.
On the other hand ram+offmaps are batshit OP cheesing, and this is why RAM is being locked under vet1. At least players who want to cheese out heavy tanks, will be requared to play with t34 a bit before they can do it.
what about reinforcement costs? u must take those into account also
Considering odds they are facing and nature of grens, you can expect looses and droped models aswell, if you are not start engagement from green cover without moving. So passive bleed for grens is a normal thing, maybe formation will slightly make situation better.
This is actually SPECIFICALLY why they DO NOT have fausts from get go, so these units can actually be used against them, especially M3 as UC does something from range.
All this does allows to cheese out usage of this units, because you have no tools to respond aside from raketen which is a suicidal invesment early on, because of map controll against both soviets and UKF.
There are no justification for flame M3 to just retreat wipe and run freely, and for UC to have 0 threat what so ever but small arms fire.
Not to mention Pfusiliers have AT nade from the get go, and this doesnt make OKW suddenly OP and unstoppable by having snare early on.
Its a cheapest mainline with cheapest upgrade and no additional side costs involved into unlocking their full utility.
They perform very much according to their price and are cost efficient within it.
Cons cost you 240MP, Volks 260 = 20 MP difference, pose threat. Grens cost 240+100MP for T1, Rifles cost 280 (40MP difference), Tommies cost 270 (30MP difference), vannila grens pose 0 threat what so ever to them, aside from grenade.
Can we stop with this BS with cheapest mainline and cheapest upgrades.
When your LMG are essential invesment, when support units are essential investment, when using nades essential investment in most of the fighing scenarious, that doesnt make them cheapest mainline to maintain.
Only the fact that you need 500MP or 480MP to fight off one rifle already doesnt make them cheapest.
-Swehrer. All commander vehicles including ostwind\Hetzer\KVs (Shermans and T34\85 are alirght) should requare CPs to be unlocked. There are no rocket since here, the fact that right now commanders put units into roster just by selecting them, bringing hell of a lot more problems that it solves.
Swehrer change is somewhat alright, but without CP requarement on mentioned units, it always will be broken, since playing around with basic army tech and costs, just to ajust specific commanders are a bad idea.
-Give Volks fausts on track call-in and nades on track deployed. Objectively volks dont nessery need flamenades so early, while they do need fausts, because of M3 and Bren carrier.
I don't like their design, but it's not an excuse to buff Grens so they can 1v1 sections. Same with riflemen.
I never was proposing that. The only single proposial I was making is to somehow look at ost early game power carriers like MG42. Because if some of MG42 power was taken and relocated towards vannila grens, to rufly keep everything at the same lvl of power as this combination providing right now.
This will be a nerf to cheesing with skipping T1 (because MG as itself will be weaker) and make vannila grens more plesent to use when they are not supported. They still will be weaker, but still should pose threat to more expensive inf, just like cons do to volks, if enemy engage them badly.
In other words, lets say if MG42 represents 90% of ost early game and Grens 10%, in my opinion it should be 60% for the MG42 and 40% for grens.
How is that relevant? Ostheer was designed with 0CP call in infantry (assgrens and osttruppen) to supplement their stock roster, as well as 5min (4 now thanks balance team) elite infantry. They're not as dependent on their stock mainlines as other factions because that's how they were designed and that's how it still is. Doesn't make Grens a bad unit, Ostheer was always designed to have options.
There is thin line here. All you are saying is true, they are not as dependent, but problem is that vanilla grens requare babysitting from other units. Rifles can freely push them, Tommies can freely poke them from range.
Where one need one unit, ostheer need two. Lets say cons vs Volks match up, even if cons would have to retreat after engaging volks at close range, volks would most likely have to be retreated aswell. Its a small but win. Both USF\UKF can engage unsupported grens, with minimal casulties.
As I was saying before, on paper and as a raw stats unit, grens are fine and good. But in reality they are put in such environment vs USF\UKF that playing with them is just painfull, considering you are in constant full disadvantage if you are not bringing some specific toys. They are not just weaker, they are almost completly useless, if not supported. Without LMG that is.
Also again, for a meatshield grens are too expensive to maintain aswell as to keep on the field (considering 4 models).
Not really, LMGs and 5men have the same cost. LMGs even arrive earlier.
Also what's the issue with early Grens? I don't get it. Vs UKF you have a sniper, vs USF you have the mg42.
To be clear here, I never said that LMGs are bad. I said that VSL is a better option, because it makes grens independant squad, OP or not another discussion (but most likely it is OP), while LMG give a significant DPS boost but doesnt make squad fully independant in 1v1ning aswell as mobility suffers from it. Aswell as VSL make grens both defensive and offensive inf.
And about sniper and so on. Thats the whole god damn point, I'm trying to make. Yes you have sniper vs UKF but you dont need grens, sniper will do all the work. You dont need grens vs USF because MG42 will be doing all the work.
Grens are litteraly 4 men expensive to reinforce meatshield for other units to do all the job. And on top of that combination of MG42\Sniper with ass.grens or ostts showing better results. In one case you can pull out some significant additional damage early on, in the other you have cheap to maintain 5 men squad, which is better in combat then vannila grens.
Just because Osttruppen, pgrens and VSL are OP doesn't make LMG Grens bad.
Grens arent starting with LMG, if they were then ppl would have picked them always. This window of playing vannila grens vs USF\UKF, is the whole deal breaker for all this "lmg grens" mambo jambo.
but how would u go on about buffing grens without upsetting the balance even more?, it will just be power creep all over again and dont forget about volks. I personally, think Infantry sections needs to have some of ther stats reverted, volks MP/build time nerfs reverted, keep riflemen as they are (usf are more reliant on main line inf then anyone else), maybe give grens slightly less reinforce then nerf ostruppen and VSL. i think grens with lmg are pretty good, they just suck with kar98's
You cant just strate off buff the grens, the same way you cant just strate off buff the cons. As I was saying MG42 is a T70 of Ostheer.
At this point honenestly I dont know the simple way to make grens a valid option, without just forcing them into a players army, by nerfing other options. Because power difference between mainline inf for WFA and EFA is just too huge.
Not to mention, that cons are balanced vs grens and volks, grens are balance vs cons, buffing grens and nerfing MG42, will break cons vs grens, buffing cons to match grens power and nerfing T70 will probably make volks vs cons broken.
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