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Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?

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GachiGasm
26 Nov 2020, 16:04 PM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 11:12 AMAlphrum

If/when ostruppen get nerfed, this will deal with any pgrens hitting the field too early


This will bring VSL in 99% of the games. If VSL get nerfed, then hell I wont be surprised to see Ass.grens into T2.

Problem is not with skipping, problem is that grens overall suck ass. This is the single reason of all this BS that is happening.

Osttroopens at this point showing better combat perfomance vs UFS\UKF then grenadiers, while on paper they should be worst and cheaper.

As a raw stats bag, they are fine, in actuall gameplay they objectively suck. Input requared to make them work is just so much highter then the output you get from them, that its just pointless to chose them over litteraly any other option avaible.

Hell, I belive we even saw during one of the tournaments, Osttroppen WITH T1 build for sniper, but even in this case no grens were thrown into the mix.

But I left wondering why according to ppl like Stormjaeger, who shouts that everyone are noobs and grens (with LMG) are good option, but still in a competitive play noone bothering getting them.

Probably because Ost+T1 skip is IWIN always :snfPeter:
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Katitof
26 Nov 2020, 16:24 PM
#42
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 11:15 AMDarkpiatre
As long as grens remain a bad mainline infantry we can't nerf pzgrens.

And as long as 251 arrives so early, we can't buff grens.
Checkmate.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 12:40 PMVipper

I have not seen all the game of WC2020 but from what I have seen, the PG use was limited to 1 or 2 units.

So in your mind, unit can only be OP, when its spammed?
jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 14:20 PMDarkpiatre


*7 conscript laugh at your back*

Beside that, your biais is quite funny though.

Pls share your BO for 3 minute 7 man cons.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Alphrum
26 Nov 2020, 16:27 PM
#43
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:04 PMGachiGasm


This will bring VSL in 99% of the games. If VSL get nerfed, then hell I wont be surprised to see Ass.grens into T2.

Problem is not with skipping, problem is that grens overall suck ass. This is the single reason of all this BS that is happening.

Osttroopens at this point showing better combat perfomance vs UFS\UKF then grenadiers, while on paper they should be worst and cheaper.

As a raw stats bag, they are fine, in actuall gameplay they objectively suck. Input requared to make them work is just so much highter then the output you get from them, that its just pointless to chose them over litteraly any other option avaible.

Hell, I belive we even saw during one of the tournaments, Osttroppen WITH T1 build for sniper, but even in this case no grens were thrown into the mix.

But I left wondering why according to ppl like Stormjaeger, who shouts that everyone are noobs and grens (with LMG) are good option, but still in a competitive play noone bothering getting them.

Probably because Ost+T1 skip is IWIN always :snfPeter:


but how would u go on about buffing grens without upsetting the balance even more?, it will just be power creep all over again and dont forget about volks. I personally, think Infantry sections needs to have some of ther stats reverted, volks MP/build time nerfs reverted, keep riflemen as they are (usf are more reliant on main line inf then anyone else), maybe give grens slightly less reinforce then nerf ostruppen and VSL. i think grens with lmg are pretty good, they just suck with kar98's
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GachiGasm
26 Nov 2020, 16:39 PM
#44
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:27 PMAlphrum


but how would u go on about buffing grens without upsetting the balance even more?, it will just be power creep all over again and dont forget about volks. I personally, think Infantry sections needs to have some of ther stats reverted, volks MP/build time nerfs reverted, keep riflemen as they are (usf are more reliant on main line inf then anyone else), maybe give grens slightly less reinforce then nerf ostruppen and VSL. i think grens with lmg are pretty good, they just suck with kar98's


You cant just strate off buff the grens, the same way you cant just strate off buff the cons. As I was saying MG42 is a T70 of Ostheer.

At this point honenestly I dont know the simple way to make grens a valid option, without just forcing them into a players army, by nerfing other options. Because power difference between mainline inf for WFA and EFA is just too huge.

Not to mention, that cons are balanced vs grens and volks, grens are balance vs cons, buffing grens and nerfing MG42, will break cons vs grens, buffing cons to match grens power and nerfing T70 will probably make volks vs cons broken.
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T.R. Stormjäger
26 Nov 2020, 16:42 PM
#45
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:04 PMGachiGasm
But I left wondering why according to ppl like Stormjaeger, who shouts that everyone are noobs and grens (with LMG) are good option, but still in a competitive play noone bothering getting them.

Probably because Ost+T1 skip is IWIN always :snfPeter:


Yeah people (including me) play the OP doctrines.

How is that surprising?

Just because Osttruppen, pgrens and VSL are OP doesn't make LMG Grens bad.
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Vipper
26 Nov 2020, 16:43 PM
#46
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:24 PMKatitof
...
So in your mind, unit can only be OP, when its spammed?
...

No.
:)
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Katitof
26 Nov 2020, 16:44 PM
#47
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:43 PMVipper

No.

In such case, you should have no problems seeing how osttruppen t1 skip makes them OP for their timing.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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GachiGasm
26 Nov 2020, 16:45 PM
#48
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:42 PMT.R. Stormjäger


Yeah people (including me) play the OP doctrines.

How is that surprising?

Just because Osttruppen, pgrens and VSL are OP doesn't make LMG Grens bad.


Grens arent starting with LMG, if they were then ppl would have picked them always. This window of playing vannila grens vs USF\UKF, is the whole deal breaker for all this "lmg grens" mambo jambo.

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T.R. Stormjäger
26 Nov 2020, 16:50 PM
#49
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:45 PMGachiGasm


Grens arent starting with LMG, if they were then ppl would have picked them always. This window of playing vannila grens vs USF\UKF, is the whole deal breaker for all this "lmg grens" mambo jambo.



Not really, LMGs and 5men have the same cost. LMGs even arrive earlier.

Also what's the issue with early Grens? I don't get it. Vs UKF you have a sniper, vs USF you have the mg42.
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Darkpiatre
26 Nov 2020, 16:51 PM
#50
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:24 PMKatitof

And as long as 251 arrives so early, we can't buff grens.
Checkmate.

How does the 251 reduce the amount of MP a gren section lose while traiding?



jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:24 PMKatitof

Pls share your BO for 3 minute 7 man cons.


I can't, but I can help you understanding the game in a way you will be able to do more than just trolling on this forum.
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T.R. Stormjäger
26 Nov 2020, 16:52 PM
#51
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:51 PMDarkpiatre
How does the 251 reduce the amount of MP a gren section lose while traiding?


It reinforces the Grenadier squad in the middle of the fight (can even heal it if it jumps inside) so it doesn't lose DPS from model drops and trades better vs enemy squad.
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Darkpiatre
26 Nov 2020, 16:55 PM
#52
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:52 PMT.R. Stormjäger


It reinforces the Grenadier squad in the middle of the fight (can even heal it if it jumps inside) so it doesn't lose DPS from model drops and trades better vs enemy squad.


For a defensive purpose I would agree, for an offensive one it is just a deep black hole for MP. And since the grens section are an all purpose inf, the 251 only make them viable in a role where every mainline inf is suppose to be good.
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Vipper
26 Nov 2020, 16:55 PM
#53
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:44 PMKatitof

In such case, you should have no problems seeing how osttruppen t1 skip makes them OP for their timing.

I suggest you start reading before jumping into a debate.

My point was that Pg are not used as mainline infatry and unless you want argue that PGs are mainline infatry I suggest you move on.

As for timing I am glad to see that you finally starting to comprehend what I have been saying for year now.

If T1 skipping makes PG arrive to early and OP, PG from T2 are simply too late and UP for cost.
:)
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Vipper
26 Nov 2020, 16:57 PM
#54
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:50 PMT.R. Stormjäger


Not really, LMGs and 5men have the same cost. LMGs even arrive earlier.

Also what's the issue with early Grens? I don't get it. Vs UKF you have a sniper, vs USF you have the mg42.

"This is factually wrong". Lmg grenadier cost 240 manpower and 5 men grenadier cost 270 manpower
:)
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GachiGasm
26 Nov 2020, 17:00 PM
#55
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:50 PMT.R. Stormjäger


Not really, LMGs and 5men have the same cost. LMGs even arrive earlier.

Also what's the issue with early Grens? I don't get it. Vs UKF you have a sniper, vs USF you have the mg42.


To be clear here, I never said that LMGs are bad. I said that VSL is a better option, because it makes grens independant squad, OP or not another discussion (but most likely it is OP), while LMG give a significant DPS boost but doesnt make squad fully independant in 1v1ning aswell as mobility suffers from it. Aswell as VSL make grens both defensive and offensive inf.

And about sniper and so on. Thats the whole god damn point, I'm trying to make. Yes you have sniper vs UKF but you dont need grens, sniper will do all the work. You dont need grens vs USF because MG42 will be doing all the work.

Grens are litteraly 4 men expensive to reinforce meatshield for other units to do all the job. And on top of that combination of MG42\Sniper with ass.grens or ostts showing better results. In one case you can pull out some significant additional damage early on, in the other you have cheap to maintain 5 men squad, which is better in combat then vannila grens.
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JibberJabberJobber
26 Nov 2020, 17:02 PM
#56
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Grenadier vs Riflemen match-up is fine, the problem is once the second BAR and Riflemen vet 3 get into the equation.

Maybe an idea would be to give LMG/G43 Grens a 5th man once T3 (or T4) is constructed as 20 muni upgrade.

It would be an Osttruppen model with the RA of Grens, but a Kar98k with worse accuracy and he can't take over a G43 or LMG42. The model would also be cheaper to reinforce (like 20mp).

Now the passive T4 bonus can be removed and the vet 3 damage reduction can be reverted back to RA as well.
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T.R. Stormjäger
26 Nov 2020, 17:03 PM
#57
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:55 PMDarkpiatre
For a defensive purpose I would agree, for an offensive one it is just a deep black hole for MP.


I'd be inclined to agree if I wasn't terrorized by the top ranked strat of running 4-5 5man Gren squads with 2 pak40s and a 251, running around the map destroying everything.

5man Grens blob + 251 is TERRIFYING


jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 16:57 PMVipper

"This is factually wrong".


cool, noone cares. Take your pettiness elsewhere and stay on topic.



jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 17:00 PMGachiGasm
And about sniper and so on. Thats the whole god damn point, I'm trying to make. Yes you have sniper vs UKF but you dont need grens, sniper will do all the work. You dont need grens vs USF because MG42 will be doing all the work.


How is that relevant? Ostheer was designed with 0CP call in infantry (assgrens and osttruppen) to supplement their stock roster, as well as 5min (4 now thanks balance team) elite infantry. They're not as dependent on their stock mainlines as other factions because that's how they were designed and that's how it still is. Doesn't make Grens a bad unit, Ostheer was always designed to have options.
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Vipper
26 Nov 2020, 17:06 PM
#58
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 17:02 PMJibberJabberJobber
Grenadier vs Riflemen match-up is fine, the problem is once the second BAR gets into the equation.

Maybe an idea would be to give LMG/G43 Grens a 5th man once T3 (or T4) is constructed.

It would be an Osttruppen model with the RA of Grens, but a Kar98k with worse accuracy and he can't take over a G43 or LMG42. The model would also be cheaper to reinforce (like 20mp).

Now the passive T4 bonus can be removed and the vet 3 damage reduction can be reverted back to RA as well.

Well this thread is about PG and not grenadiers, but what you are suggesting will simply lead to more power creep.

It is the allied infatry that need to adjusted and not the lmg grenadiers.
:)
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Darkpiatre
26 Nov 2020, 17:07 PM
#59
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 17:03 PMT.R. Stormjäger

5man Grens blob + 251 is TERRIFYING


True, consider I was speaking only for the vanilla 4 man squad.
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T.R. Stormjäger
26 Nov 2020, 17:09 PM
#60
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 17:07 PMDarkpiatre


True, consider I was speaking only for the vanilla 4 man squad.


LMG Grens are inherently more defensive in nature, so it's reasonable the offensive nature of theirs isn't as competent as 5man grens when supplemented by a 251.

They probably benefit more on the defense, considering they do incredibly well in trading from long range.


jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 17:02 PMJibberJabberJobber
Maybe an idea would be to give LMG/G43 Grens a 5th man once T3 (or T4) is constructed as 20 muni upgrade.


You'd have to swap back their 20% DR bonus at vet 3 with an RA bonus.
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