You're either extremely delusional or a bad player or extremely wehr-horny.
PFs are not that weak early on. Overall the are the best mainline one can get, out of all mainlines in all factions. The G43 upgrade which also gives bonus sight is beautiful for the OKW aggressive playstyle.
What are you on about? They are the most cost efficient squad there is. There is a reason why pretty much every game features fussies in teamgames, especially vs brits and USF which lack good blob control. Their effectiveness is somewhat lessened in 1v1 due to the nature of the mode, where you don't really want to blob and lose territory on a relatively large map for 200 population.
I've seen 2x volks + 2x fussies. I've seen fussies only. I've seen fussies and kubel opening. In whichever build you add fussies, they improve the strength in all stages of the game. 10dmg paired with good long and medium range accuracy is not something to throw aside. Just compare the stats of kar98 to other mainline infantry and check the range/accuracy values, and you'll see how you can use them most efficiently.
Well you should firstly:
1) Agro less
2) Read what I was saying before
As I was saying 4vs4 PFs arent 1v1\2v2 PFs. In 4v4 its much easier to play with them and they are stronger.
Speaking of, can you like not bring G43 like they start the game with it for a second? G43 is BS, but I clearly said that G43 is BS, because default PFs are shit.
You can agrue as long as you want, but for a 270MP unit, default PFs are utter garbage, volks are better in early game then PFs its a fact, also the fact that volks arent particularly good should ring a bell. If you have problems dealing with PFs more then you have with Volks early, then I have bad news for you. PFs early game advantage over volks - snare, thats it, because its allow OKW to not get completly cheesed out by sov clown car and UKF UC.
And about G43 read ending of my previous post, i've said why its broken. When you have all your DPS concentrated in few models of a 6 men squad, while the rest of the squad is a meatshield you are begging to have something broken. |
They are literally designed to be upgraded. Paras get slightly better guns and 1 more man than rifles but cost significantly more and come at CP3. At that point your vetted Rifles would be stronger to significantly if they have Bars so the only point in buying them is to upgrade them.
Yes, but again at 2 CP mark you have your established army more or less, you have muni to upgrade them instanly or not. Its wrong to compare them to the starting unit when you are not only dont have a lot of units to support them, but also you dont have muni to spare.
Also having literal penal damage is still good, because penals damage vise are very strong squad, especially considering that at 2CP mark there are not so many vetted\upgraded squads running around.
Your are vastly exaggerating how weak PF are to start the game, both Isildur and Kimbo used a 2VG/2PF opening against USF and both won decisively. They did it in the AECOH tournament, which leads me to believe that these ELITE players thought that the "weak" start was worth it for later gains.
EDIT: Rewatching, they both also upgraded their PF squad first my guess being other than DPS the extra 7 sight helps immensely when screening for the FlakTrack.
Well they are elite players for this reason. Good players can only play with soviet T1 oppeninings against osts and not fall badly behind in map countrol. In their games its more about outplaying your opponent by possitioning\taking engagements not about units themself. They are not really a reference point imo, since you know OKW in 1v1 is a trash faction judging by the stats, while good players can present it like its a cake walk.
Point is, PF are frustrating to deal with, but imo its because their DPS is concentrated around G43. If their power was redistributed making their regular rifles not suck balls (and be better in early game in return) while tonning down G43 upgrade, they would have been fine. Since at least they would have suffer from model drops much more significantly. |
That not a real weakness since it applies to several units. Grens, Guards, Paratroopers are mediocre to bad without their upgrades. They are designed to be upgraded which allows opponent to make decisions on how to counter.
Thats not true. Guards, grens and paras become significantly better with weapon upgrades, but they are not weak without them considering timings. PF in early game is objectively the weakest inf in the game considering their price.
Yet PF also get added utility which allows mixing with VG early to work around their "weakness" and similar cost allows OKW to completely forget about VG later.
Yeah but why? I mean you either go full house PF or 1 Volk (for sandbag) and 3 PF. There is no reason to mix volks with PFs like what so ever, simply because you will end up with a handicapped army anyway.
The only somewhat realistic scenario is 3 volks and 1 PF later upgraded with Schrecks maybe. Ofcouse exluding situations where OKW go full retard and gets like up to 5 inf squads.
Also according to some forum members, OKW is designed to upgun to Obers as the game progresses. Not having to do that is a massive strength by itself.
This is actually funny question what is easier to deal with PF blobs or Obers. As I was saying previously obersts are uttery retarded unit, expecially in teamgames. Because the only justification of its overpowered nature - the shit DPS scaling of Volks past mid game.
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PFs need a REAL weakness.
Their weakness is the fact that they suck ass in early game, but in teamgames its less noticable, but its still true.
Whole concept of "suffer early, kill later" was flawed from the beggining. If they were at least partly better then volks early then their G43 could have been toned down, but as it stands right now it would be unfair to nerf G43 without giving any early game buffs in return, since there would be 0 point of getting them over volks, exept maybe for snare.
Their powerspike is pretty much the single reason why they are not overlapping with volks to begin with, since you can rely less on elites using them.
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Have the balance team balance around team games (because thats where the majority of players are) then have a mod that is focused solely on 1v1s. Anyone wanting completely fair, 50/50 win rate, skillbased 1v1s can download a mod for that.
Honestly there is no point really. Relic just need to do few basic steps:
1) Give all factions all the nessesery tools to play with, in order to make commanders an addition, rather then nessesity
2) Tone down MG\Support weapons spam
3) Make arty less spammable
4) Stabilize economy by creating same income across the gamemodes and maybe removing caches
Sure some tech skips and more risky strats will still exist in teamgames, since teammate will cover your butt, but over-all with what I meantioned, even if game will balanced exclusively for 1v1 it will affect 4v4 aswell, since ... well phasing of the game will be the same.
CoH2 teamgames are broken exclusively because of the how overpowered support weapons are and how economy phasing is completly ruined. When we have up to 5 min difference when first arrive in different gamemodes there is no way you can balance the game for 1v1 and 4v4 respectively. |
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Who would win 4v4 allies not knowing the tech or 4v4 axis loosing to maxim spam because ost dont need mortar. |
If you could read, you'd see that I don't want any sort of stock rocket arty on USF, pak howi and scott should be enough, but after the mega nerfs, they have become less than obsolete at fighting late blobs. And USF does not have very strong infantry. Rifles are great close range, lose long range against both volks and grens. 2x BAR reinforces medium range firepower when all of the combat is done at long range where Obers dominate along with MG grens. If you actually played this game at any level other than rank 9000, you'd know that the notion that USF has some Godgiven infantry is false. Are rifles strong? Yes. Do they sh** on volks or grens? Only on close range. Hence why you see kubel start vs USF all the time. Kubel vs Rifles is a won engagement. Spios + kubel + volks >> 2x rifles + echelon.
Same goes for OST. Pios + MG42 on most teamgame maps = locked down area of the map.
Play USF in higher brackets and you'll see how the "USF Infantry stronk" diminishes quickly
And yet Rifles are best mainline inf stats wise and they shit on both volks and grens, but wow combined arms are suddenly supperior then just inf. Thats the whole point why WFA factions are objectively shit.
All they can do is spam mainline into more mainline, unlike Ost\Sov who actually can adapt to the situations and maps by getting different units. And both sov\ost are asymetrical yet have access to the same tools but in different ways.
WFA instead are always were either shit or OP. And its good that your brought howi and scott into discussions, since they were supposed to cover USF lack of rocket arty by ... being overpowered in a first place, because of how strong rocket arty are. And they rightfully got nerfed because they needed that nerf, leaving us with the mediocre units they are, because again the only way they can cover lack of rocket arty is by being broken stats wise.
On top of that you can safely add bad map desing, bad economy system and bad resource system in teamgames and you end up where we are right now.
Again if factions are desinged to have same tools in stock it doest make them mirrored to begin with. |
I'd take asymmetrical balance over the mirrored BS any time of day.
Go tell this to vCoH USF and Wehr, which had pretty much all the nessesery tools and the same units with same roles, but factions was completly asymmetrical. Its funny how most of USF\UKF players still bitching about "OH WHERE IS MY ROCKET ARTY" while at the same time having rock hard on the idea of "asymmetrical factions". Here is your asymmetry as you want it. You dont have strong tanks, you dont have snares, you dont have rocker arty, but you have very strong inf, deal with it.
If factions have access to the same tools it doesnt mean that they instanly become mirrored, its just plain false claim. |
I have never mentioned anything about CoH3 pre-alpha. What I am mad about is that John posted that comment right after the release of the June patch. I believe the timing was unintentional, but how the heck are they going to fix all the balance issues if the CoH 2 balance team indeed did sacrifice the balance of 4v4 to achieve a more balancing 1v1.
By not making game shitty to begin with. You missed my original post completly. CoH2 was shit from the beggining, it wasnt balaced on release, nor its completly balanced now.
For sure you cant balance the game across the gamemodes if your base game is unbalanced crap with shity designed factions to begin with.
CoH2 balance problems are not problems of wrong stats, coh2 balance problems comes from the rotten core of the game. If the CoH3 will be able to create good designed factions and the problems of the balance wont be based around "Well shit faction X need full rewamp in order to be playable" then there wont be any problem balancing game for all the gamemodes.
Also again, relic have nothing to do with coh2 balancing and it was impossible to balance coh2 around 4v4 at this point. Balance team chose to balance game around 1v1, just because there was no other options.
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Here is the thing, before they released Dawn of War III, they also claimed they had shaped the game base on the fans' requests. And see what kind of trash they have pumped out.
This is lie, people asked for something simular to DoW-1 with elements from DoW-2. Both games have\had their player bases, while community was saying that DoW3 is gonna be shit the second Relic showed the gameplay. But it again was the case of "Managers at relic knows better then the community" and the game floped.
Thing is, alpha of CoH3 was nothing more then a "concept demo", meaning that litteraly nothing is ready like at all. Its an models\textures\asset mix without any finished content. Meaning that relic can collect feed back before factions are designed, before the balance is made, before mechanics are finished. This wasnt the case for vCoH\CoH2\DoW2\DoW3\AOE4
Thats the whole point.
Also, for AoE 4, they have claimed the same things. One of my friends, who have spent thousands of hours on AoE 2, said that the game is still far from satisfactory, at least based on the trailers.
Cant comment on that. I can only say that AoE2 has massive community and I'm not really sure that AoE4 would be so good it will force people to play it, rather then AoE2 since its a polished classic. |
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