It's the best "mortar" in the game sure, and it gets deleted easily by.... Guess what... Late-game arty. 5 man crew that needs 3 guys, so one single rocket can de-crew it
Aswell as any other inderect unit unit in the game. Also one single rocket can delete it yes, but what other options to counter if its well defended?
I really dont see any reason why caliope needs to be a non-doc unit, why USF "needs" its as a stock unit. Aside from the fact that they dont have stock rocket arty. If the sole reason is this, then you might aswell nerf it to be one-shotable as any other rocket arty in the game or bump its cost by twise the amount it is right now since even with nerf it will be twise as durable as other rocket arty in the game, while having same lvl of power.
Also not to mention that Urban assault, gives yous you access to elite inf + gives upgrades to litteraly all your army and tactival support turns your rifles into terminators with LMG, gives your mobile reinforcement car (+ best AA unit in the game).
Its not like you would pick the commander and only get main use of it by cali. |
I'm well aware of the tech cost vipper, I literally just mentioned that for the walking stuka. Having access to rocket arty EVERY game no matter what > than no tech cost if you happen to pick the commanders. That was my point
Is it really a problem? As USF you have arguable best pak howi, you have mobile mortar unit like scott, which cant be counter artied. You have access to phosphore to counter bunched up team weapons or blobs.
Ost need werfer to fight allies upgraded inf, Sov need katy to fight okw blobs\ost teamweapons, OKW needs stuka to fight same allied inf and clear defensive possitions.
UKF dont have neither rocket arty or mobile mortar if you dont pick a commander.
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Just, both Calliope and SZF are very survivable and obnoxious to deal with. One has health, other has range, both don't have clear cost effective counters.
SZF is generally DEEP behind lines, as it has no reason not to be, unless striking behind the lines.
Any LV ponetially can kill stuka, any tank will one-shot it. If you need to kill it that badly you can even suicide your medium to kill it and it will be 1 to 1 trade in terms of resources.
And here is simple mathematic.
Imagine that lets say PIV trying to kill caliope by rushing it. There is a support in terms of lets say 1 AT gun or other medium.
PIV need 3 hits to kill it, while itself need 4 hits to be killed. Imagine all hits penetrated caliope and and dead, while at the same time something was shooting at PIV, and effectively PIV will leave the fight being 1\2 shot from death, itself. All of this IF all hits penetrated cali and it didnt miss.
If you rush stuka, you effectively need 1 hit to kill it, with mediums. Even with support, if you cant snare\nuke rushing medium you wont save stuka if you miss played or didnt protect the flanks.
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so the issue is that unsupported grens lose against more expensive infantry?
all grens need is a bonus against suppressed and pinned units to highlight them as support for the lmg42. they are not supposed to be fighting anything but conscripts alone
Yes it is the issue, not in unit but in design and enviroment it face. When you effectively need 2 units to fight 1. HMG42 can aswell force to retreat or hold the ground with or without grens.
Also again, this "more expensive" aurgument cant be really applyed to grens, because you actually need to spend time and resourses to get them. At least all other main-line inf comes from HQ. Sure you are not only getting grens, but also access to sniper\mortars, but still.
At the same time if MG42 was swaped with grens, ost would have been over run in every single match.
After all balance changes and new factions added, grens were left only balanced against Soviet cons, where cons win and close range, if they can get into it fast and grens win at long range.
Thats why pretty much osttropens are so popular, why 5 men grens are popular, why T1 skip is popular. Not because all of this are OP, but because you can make use of it and you wont be always 1 step behind your opponent if terms of mainline inf.
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You get pgrens after BP1. What are you talking about?
They also have the best HMG in the game, their infantry is fine. Stock 5 man grens is absurd, I really can't believe people are still asking for this
Problem is, ost inf scales badly into lategame if you are playing without any doc. stuff.
Personally, I like LMG grens, they do feel powerfull, while default grens feels meh. 5 men grens are fine, G43 grens are somewhat fine, G43 PGs are excellent.
I find myself skipping T1 most of the time in favor of getting G43 PGs fast.
Grens are in general feels out of place. They are just not worth playing with in a long run.
You will lose long range fight vs UKF, USF can just rush you, Sov are fine as long as its not penals.
T1 is only good for sniper\mortar, but grens are meh.
Not to mention considering Bren carrier, Jeep and Clowncar possible oppenings, rushing BP1 will hardcounter it and you wont bleed as a pig trying to snare and finish it.
On the other note, I really hate 5 men grens. Not because their power, but because it removes any possabilities of buffing them. I would rather honestly see them as more expensiмe 260\270 inf, but with proper long range power and survivability. But now its not possible because 5 men up exists. |
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It feels like some ppl in this thread intentionally or not think that proposal is to make capiope one-shotable unit.
Ppl ask here to lower its HP to 360 instead of 400, so it would die to 2 shots instead of 3.
And please, why are you acting like its perfomance as rocket arty is garbage. Its not worst then katy at shotgunning and even better then katy.
If katy can go into short range and shoot, being one-shotable unit, then lowering caliope HP wont take its "durability", "ment to be durable".
Still I dont see any logical explanation why 400HP is justified, while 360 is not, aside from abstruct one "its premium", "it has to be durable", "its a tank" and so on. |
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Also would be cool to know, what engagements to take, and against what cons can win\lose in cover and on distance.
How to play with them in general. |
shotgun placement. On the front itself carpeting a small area, but densely.
All rocket arty has to do the same. Its the same for panzerwerfer, same for katy, landmatters is garbage.
Also, Puma
You shoudnt forger that Ost have puma only in 1 commander and potentually trading off puma as OKW for Caliope as not a good trade for the economy.
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I would have rather removed them completly insted of remaking and replace them with something else. There are not of of commanders with them, and adding something better would possible make them more usefull in general.
Lightning war - Breackthrought
Festung Support - puma\osttrupen reserves
Soviet Reserve army - For mother russia
Conscript Support - commisar
For Ost both lightning war and festung, are neat. They are decent, even with one wasted ability.
Soviet commanders with it are kinda meh, especially consript support which is pretty much copy of Advanced warfare with a difference being t34\85 instead of KV, different arty and radio intersaption instead of rapid coscription. |
I do agree with one of previous posters who said calli is a relic of nostalgia and much more interesting unit could be added instead, but that's what we have and it does not make much sense to see an actual tank go down to 1 shot of anything in CoH game.
I do agree that it shoudnt and stupid to ask that it should be one-shoted. It can still have armor at least like t34\76, to have chances of bounce, and have its HP to be 320 to make it 2 shots instead of 3.
You still will be somewhat more durable and protected during shotgunning and from tank rush if you properly make your difences, but at the same time enemy wont requare his whole tank army to chase you down.
I also belive, that even if ppl want it to still be distinct, aside from durability, turret rotation can be activated on it, to make it easier to use.
But I'm not sure if launcher itself if mounted to the hull or turret, it needs checking in atrib editor. If it is mounted to the turret then it will work. |
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