Profile of IntoTheRain

I'd actually say tac movement is balanced. For the cost of oorah twice your whole infantry army sprints, and machine guns too. The ability isn't flashy, but it's not bad at all-the commanders it's in on the other hand....

I haven't played the commander in ages, how much does the usf smoke/sprint combo from that ranger commander cost?

Really it does highlight how OP radio silence is (the tactical movement that is)
But funny enough, if the movement types were swapped, so that the Ostheer one was the sprint but not sprint allowing them to fire on the move (keeping in mind that grens are ass on the move, pios are ass at range and really you only need to worry about pgrens) and if radio silence had proper sprint both abilities would be much more in line with one another

The big ugly of okw having a fire on the move speed boost is they can have stgs on quite literally their entire infantry force... Stgs that are good on the move meaning it's disgusting with synergy. Ost would not present such a problem.

Oorah! - 15 munitions, 10s duration
Tactical Movement - 40 munitions, 20s duration
Cover to Cover - 60 munitions, 20s duration

Tactical Movement is a pretty weak ability in my mind. Mass sprinting just isn't really useful to most factions, but especially Ostheer. I usually only care about a single squad getting in range to throw the snare or beating a squad to a house. It doesn't really help chase down fleeing squads, and rapidly closing distance isn't beneficial to a long range focused faction.

Cover to Cover works because it provides smoke cover and the faction is based on closing and maneuvering. Oorah works because it only affects a single squad that benefits from snaring and flanking. Tactical Movement..doesn't really gel with the faction at all.

Brit reworks get suggested every week and continue to fall on deaf ears.

Tactical Movement isn't really a useful point of comparison just because of how weak it is. (also you forgot tactical movement is CP2 vs the CP0 of radio silence)

Go after the starting cover bonus then. They already beat axis mainlines at long and medium range out of cover, there's no reason they need a cover bonus on top of that. You can give it back to them either through vet or tech, backloading some of the early power so you can actually give them some proper midgame tools.

Expand the stock roster to actually have some midgame offensive tools. Open up the AEC and Bofors into actual side techs that unlock multiple units and/or upgrades. They need mobile arty in some form and better CQC. You can even leave one side of this tree open to start giving them their defensive tools back if they so choose. (Trenches, cover bonus, etc)

Its no secret they aren't well liked as is. People hate playing against them and find them boring to play. Given how common these sentiments are, its incredibly frustrating to see a balance patch that once again doesn't even pretend its trying to fix their problems.

Nobody denies that it's best in class and that it outguns the stock P4s, both. While statistically it is superior, the superiority is not that big. Going vs OKW P4, E8 will win most of the time (unless RNG gods are against it), but it won't win like a Panther wins vs all other tanks, it will force it off a bit while getting out with 33% or less health on average (at least from my experience using it). It walks over OST P4.
It also does not need to trade with Panther. Panther is in a class of it's own and no tank should be similar to it. Probably the closest is Comet with it's price but it trades AT power and range for better AI cannon and utility (30 more armour, 160 less HP, more utility, no pintle MG, and other pros/cons).

I can't think of a single reason why E8 should not have a price increase with buffed armour or HP to 800.

I don't think anyone can deny that the E8 is great on paper. The commander is piss poor and it's in only one. But that is the problem with OKW, USF and UKF. Low commander count.

Without the buffs, it can only work in 1v1s where the risk of a snare is not that great, compared to teamgames where that extra 80 hp means nothing as most likely there will be one wild snare coming your way. Not to mention that the armour won't bounce paks or raketen, negating any sort of brawl in teamgames. Eg. Brummbar, panther can brawl. KVs and Churchills can sponge it, etc.

Esxile is right in a way. Either the doctrine needs to have some sort of 6CP+ abilities or the E8 should be a love child of a comet. A bit retarded doctrinal love child with worse stats and lower price

Well I had a huge reply that got deleted by this world class site, so lets try the abridged version...

I guess I dunno why the E8 has to be a straight up Panther or Comet for it to have value. I've never seen a complaint about the T-34-85 being an upgraded T-34 or the Ost P4J being an improved P4. I'm assuming your perspective is coming from a larger teamgame mode, where mediums struggle. If thats the case, I don't know if the E8 will ever be viable there. Even if we made it a straight up Panther clone, the Jackson would now be cheaper, longer ranged, and have more reliable penetration against the big cats. Furthermore, you would still feel obligated to take Infantry or a Calliope doc to fill the gaping holes in the stock USF roster over something you can already handle to a reasonable degree.

It may be that the E8 is just going to be a 1v1 or 2v2 unit. The way the game plays shifts dramatically depending on the mode, and that in turn changes the power level of lots of units.

I do agree that the doc is in desperate need of a rework though. I'm also a big proponent of more docs for USF / OKW / Brits, as there are too many units that only appear in a single doc and are often only good in a single mode.

It's important to think about opportunity cost when discussing doctrinal units. The Easy8 is good at AT, but it's not better than a Jackson, and the Easy8 is okay at anti-infantry capability, but it can't hold a candle to an HE Sherman. The Easy8 really only functions as an exceptional unit during the Medium phase of the game after you get your first tank, but before you get your second tank where it can function as both a discount Sherman and a discount Jackson until you round out your roster where you're pretty much breaking even with non-doc units.

On top of that, in order to go this doctrine at all, you're trading the current WC-51 and Cav Rifles, or Rangers, Pershing and Cheap Smoke, or Paratroopers and non-teched AT/50Cal or cheap Paratroopers+PackHowie for essentially Rifleman Oourah, Flares, and Sandbags. That trade is not even close to worth it in any of those instances.

My opinion on this is that if your infantry are doing well on the ground (getting into their vet 3 and 2nd BARs) it makes more sense to hard check the Axis mediums and soft check infantry (E8) rather than the other way around. (HE Sherman) Since you don't really want a Jackson that early, an E8 is a good way to accomplish this.

Additionally, you aren't really pushed into any direction for your 2nd tank. Another E8 is often fine, but a HE Sherman, Scott, or Jackson second all work fine with an E8 if the situation calls for it.

I do agree the doctrine is subpar though. I play with it every once in a while, and it doesn't have a ton of selling points compared to the alternatives. It burns 3 doctrinal points on infantry, but only one (sandbags) has any real impact and is available elsewhere. It needs some other impact units to give it a role.