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These arguments feel to me a lot like what was said about the 76 a year ago when no one was using it either.
Statistically the unit is fine. It trades away a chunk of its anti infantry capability for best in class AT and toughness. A pair of E8s is every bit as capable as a Dozer Sherman + Jackson against all but some very niche threats. |
The problem with all USF Shermans is that they have to compete with the very (cost) effective stock HE Sherman and Jackson. All the special variants are good on their own, but there's little reason to pick them over these two, outside of personal preference. Why take a risk with a brawler tank when a Jackson can safely snipe away from 60 range. It's not like USF desperately needs AI either with the excellent scaling of double BAR Rifles. At least the 76mm is seeing a bit more use lately.
As individually powerful as the HE Sherman and Jackson can be, flexibility does have its place. If the enemy isn't going higher than Medium Tanks (like in a lot of 1v1s) then the E8 can comfortable outduel the P4s, be more resilient to AT fire, and retain enough threat against infantry to consistently force them off points. Backed by the aforementioned lategame Riflemen, stronger AT options (76, E8) that can still force off infantry (unlike the Jackson) do at least make some sense.
I really think the doctrine lets this unit down more than anything else, and hope it gets reworked in the next patch. (And in a perfect world 1-2 new doctrines for USF / OKW / Brits as well, too many of their units are locked in single docs that only work well in 1v1 or team games.) |
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The E8s problems are being a bit overstated here.
SHERMAN E8:
HP: 720
Armor: 215 / 90
Speed: 6.1
Penetration: 200 / 165 / 155
Reload: 6 - 6.6
AOE: 2 (0.88 OHKO radius)
Scatter: 5
PANZER IV AUSF J:
HP: 640
Armor: 234 / 90
Speed: 6
Penetration: 125 / 115 / 110
Reload: 5.3 - 5.7
AOE: 2.5 (1.13 OHKO radius)
Scatter: 6.5
T-34-85:
HP: 800
Armor: 160 / 80
Speed: 6.1
Penetration: 160 / 140 / 120
Reload: 6 - 6.3
AOE: 2.5 (1.11 OHKO radius)
Scatter: 7.5
Compared to the other premium mediums, it stats up very favorably. Its far tougher than the P4J and has enough armor to realistically bounce shots unlike the T-34-85. (being able to bounce snares 25% of the time is also very relevant) Of the mediums tanks in the game, I would argue it is by far the most survivable, especially when you consider its built in smoke.
It also has the best penetration in its class combined with the lowest scatter to let it comfortably handle anything in the medium weight class. While its AT capabilities are being downplayed a bit in this thread, I'd happily take one against any Axis medium. (And as long as you are willing to get Jacksons, it will perform well as a flanker vs the bigger cats)
Of course, its toughness and AT strength have to come at a price, and the E8 pays for it in anti infantry capability. Its 1HKO radius ties it with the Cromwell for lowest in the game for medium tanks, which combined with its low rate of fire places it squarely on the bottom of the tier in terms of AI performance. How much of a problem this is is up to personal preference, as the scatter is low enough that it will consistently whittle down squads that try to ignore it and it does still have 3 MGs.
I personally feel the problems with the unit are more related to the doctrine than the unit. The E8 itself manages to fill enough of a niche that an improved Rifle Company or a new doctrine would bring it back into play. Modders that have tried to buff it (Miragefla and Sanders iirc) both quickly discovered that it can quickly turn into a 140 fuel Comet with only a few tweaks. |
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* I'd like to see 2 new docs for USF, OKW, and Brits, and 3-4 total reworks of existing docs in Ost and Soviets. For the first three, there are too many units that are present in only a single doc, and what works in a 1v1 or team game doesn't always work well in the other, leading to a lot of units getting sidelined. (E8, Priest, Pershing, M10, Greyhound, Assault Engineers, Calvary Riflemen, 76, 105) For the last two, there is way too many similar doctrines, or ones that are just plain terrible.
* I really want to see the Pershing in Armor over the 105. Assault Engineers would mean you wouldn't need to invest in extra REs late, and the M10 would help you cheaply stall for a heavy.
* Rifle Company really needs another impact unit. Units are the strongest thing you can put in docs, and it only has 1. It also burns 3 points on Riflemen, but shows almost no real improvement in combat capability for it besides the sandbags which are available elsewhere.
* I don't think Urbans RE Grenades are well designed, and should be swapped for a flamethrower. Rifle Grenades were a major part of US infantry firepower in WW2, but the implementation needs to be closer to the Grenadier version. I'd also like the 105 here instead of the dozer, but I think there would be way too much uproar about it to make that change.
* Recon Support's Raid Tactics is really unappealing. The Greyhound also needs a rethink as a unit. Its main gun is pitiful, and it leans way too hard on its massive HP pool and 50cal for damage.
* Outside of that, a lot of USF's calldowns are just...bad. P-47 Rocket Strafe is more expensive and less accurate than its peers. 240mm Barrage needs help. P-47 Strafe costs an insane amount of munitions. Smoke Barrage is more expensive than the Axis version and provides no scouting. Etc. |
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Gonna jump onto this bandwagon after playing them a bit yesterday.
Sprint gives you an 'I win' button for every early engagement, and the Assault Grens + MG42 give the opponent a lot of problems to contend with early on. (and many chances for mistakes) Sprint being dirt cheap and no LMGs to buy meant I had a ton of munitions for extra Tellers. PGrens give you another monster squad, and the fast 222 shuts down the fast LVs that normally punish snareless builds. The whole build rapidly snowballs into a fast Ostwind to close it out.
The build just gives an incredible amount of tempo and map pressure without slowing your tech down at all. |
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QoL Change:
Can we make the icons for the Sherman HE and AP rounds more distinctive? I'm constantly having to check the tooltip to see which ammo I currently have selected.
Talking with some other USF players, this seems to be a common problem. |
What scott lacks in alpha strike damage the werfer and stuka have, it more than makes up for in continuous bleed. What remains to be seen, once more people start playing it, whether the patch will kill it or do something about it. While I do not know who complained about scott being UP or OP, for such big reworks to hit it. Time will tell.
Right, the idea was to trade wiping potential for consistent bleed, thats fine. I just don't want them to kill it in this patch by turning into a glorified Mortar. Yes, abilities like WP is great, but it doesn't help you punish blobs, which is its intended function, not fighting weapon teams. You already have both the Mortar and the Pack to do that with.
Either let it do its job or else give us the Priest instead. |
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Can it just...actually do damage?
This thing is supposed to replace Rocket Arty in the USF roster. |
evidently this patch is to handicap Ost back to become worst faction.
As i have suspected, most played faction, need to be weakest faction. Thats the internal goal of mod team.
Yes, a 10 armor nerf to the Brummbar is the nerf that will send Ost into the basement. Thats the key unit around which this faction hinges. You've uncovered the conspiracy. |
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Every faction needs some form of mobile, mechanized artillery for late game arty duels and punishing blobs. For most factions thats Rocket Arty. For USF, it was supposed to be the Scott, trading wipe potential in exchange for constant bleed.
The proposed changes are removing its effectiveness as a bleed unit but not giving the faction any alternative elsewhere. If its only job is going to be to 'suppress' weapon teams, then I can get 2 Mortar Halftracks that will do the same job for cheaper than a single Scott. As an anti blob weapon, the HE Sherman will now just be the superior choice.
This is why I keep suggesting the Priest as an alternative. It gives USF something unique and of similar power to Rocket Artillery while still being unique to the faction, but would remove the constant bleed of the Scott in favor of a completely barrage based weapon. |
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