honestly, im going to have to agree with nullist here. making ppsh a non-doctrinal upgrade doesnt encourage diversity. it may make more commanders "viable", if by "viable" you mean better. the word viable implies that any doctrine that doesnt have ppsh isnt useable, which simply isnt true. maybe for your play style you require ppsh, but it isnt a requirement to win by any means.
currently there are already 3 doctrines that give ppsh. every other doctrine except 2 gives some sort of elite infantry. this is because conscripts should be replaced with elite inf. now you could make the argument that these 2 doctrines (NKVD and urban defense) need ppsh or elite inf, but they are already viable as they are. people use them and win with them as they are now.
so i fail to see why youve concluded that ppsh are mandatory for a doctrine to be viable. what youre asking for is just a flat out buff for all soviets, which really is not needed. with how cheap the upgrade is, you would never see a conscript without a ppsh.
I say non-PPSH Commanders cripple you so much they aren`t really viable, you say they are. Fine that is your opinion vs mine, no problem.
However when you say I just ask for a flat-out buff to all soviets that simply is not true, especially if you consider I accepted suggestions for increasing the price as part of the upgrade change and even encouraged others to think of ways to make sure this stays balanced. Disagree with me, that`s fine but do not put words in my mouth. I never asked for a buff of any kind.
@Ptah
I would agree with the global PPSH upgrade. However the Penal change I think has 2 issues 1) bazookas are already a Pgren thing... 2) the change would mean the Penals and Guards would be basically in the exact same role, wouldn`t they? That would seem a bit redundant. Generally I agree the Penals need to change somehow though. |
So basically your argument is:
"I want PPSH with every Commander because that somehow encourages diversity"
Thats like saying:
"I want Panzer Tactician to be universal, cos that encourages diversity"
Makes no sense dude.
Can you state
A) The problem
B) The solution
C) Why/how the solution fixes the problem
In as concise and specific sentences as you can, please.
Be accurate please: "I want PPSHs upgrade to be non-commander-specific. That encourages variability (or diversity if you prefer the term) since you don`t have to keep picking the same Commander to get the upgrade."
All the answers are in my OP but since since you are my favourite debater and I no longer believe you are a troll I`ll give you a quick tour.
A) The problem: You have to use Conscripts when playing Soviets. (No, Penals are not a valid substitute.) If you don`t have the PPSH upgrade, the Conscripts will become useless. Therefore pick the PPSH Commander every fucking time. That results in boredom. That results in either almost exclusively playing Ostheer (which I do) or not playing the game at all.
B) The solution: Make the upgrade non-commander-specific.
C) How it fixes the problem: All the Commanders become (more) viable. You don`t have to pick the same one every fucking time. You have fun.
BONUS: The difference when comapred to Panzer Tactician is twofold. You don`t need to use the units that are affected by it, neither of them is your very basic practically unskippable unit. However you most likely will use them because they are good whether you got the upgrade or not which brings me to the second difference: Not obtaining the upgrade doesn`t make the affected units useless "by any stretch of the imagination" to use the famous quote. |
1) PPSH upgrade is the wrong avenue, because it doesn't address the actual issue, which is vetted AND upgraded Grens scaling slightly too hard vs vetted AND unupgraded Cons.
Do you see where the line is? What the actual issue is?
Its the DPS of the LMG upgrade, not the lack of PPSHs, which isn't even a lack, except it depends on Commander choice.
2) If this is not a Grens vs Cons topic, then try to discuss it without mentioning Grens OR Cons. Go ahead, I dare you.
3) If this is a Commanders with PPSH vs Commanders without PPSH discussion, then discuss it as such. PPSH exists on Commanders. If you want PPSH on Cons, then select those Commanders. Simple as that.
3) Yes, I am suggesting that adjusting Penals is a more productive way of addressing the core issue here, than a universal PPSH upgrade to Cons, which does nothing to fix Penals or introduce them to the Meta, and just leads to more Cons spamming. Universal PPSH would just shove Penals even further out of the game.
You state that Penals are rarely if ever seen in the game.
A universal PPSH upgrade to Cons would ensure that Penals become positively EXTINCT.
On that topic, Ive suggested in previous threads that Penal Flamer upgrade is replaced with a PTSR, to allow for early AT, and to remain more inline with their G43-equivalent ranged modus.
4) I'm not overestimating Oorah or Merge. But you can't act like they dont exist. They do, and need to be given consideration and weight for what they are.
What you forget or choose to ignore is that PPSHs will be there in any case. So the issue is NOT "vetted AND upgraded Grens scaling slightly too hard vs vetted AND unupgraded Cons". No, because the Cons will be upgraded as well. In any case. The question is should that mean that you keep picking the same Commander all the time (as you suggest in point 3)? I say no since it kills variability. And that is what the thread is about. The rest of your post is just demagogy (see point 2) ) plus you just keep repeating the same stuff I already refuted so many times.
EDIT: Let me ilustrate my point for you and why this is not about balance but Commander variability. Lets assume LMG upgrade is taken out of the game completely (scary, I know). Would it solve the issue? Hell no! People would still keep picking the same PPSH Commanders since upgraded Cons would be "teh shit", therefore Commander variability would be in the same terrible spot. |
I think the PPSH avenue is completely the wrong way to approcah this.
Penals. They are the T1.5 unit to look to for upgraded Gren equivalency.
How can a change of PPSHs upgrade be a wrong way to approach the problem regarding PPSHs upgrade?? Do you remember what this thread is about? Once again this is not a balance thread. This is not Cons vs Grens, get this idea out of your head. This is Commanders with PPSHs vs the ones without.
So you suggest using as a basic infantry a unit that costs 360 MANP, has no AT capability whatsoever and its only "grenade ability" takes so long to detonate that everybody just retreats np every time. Penals are just bad now, you hardly ever see them.
Completely offtopic: I think you overestimate Oorah and especially Merge a bit but that is really irrelevant for this topic. |
I wouldn't give conscripts a weapons upgrade. I think they are fine in their role as basic infantry. However, they do scale rather poorly so boosting their vet3 bonus would help them out late game. But, if you buff conscripts, penals and shocks will be used even less frequent and be less useful overall.
I pretty much agree with this point. Conscripts suck against infantry but I think that's their design. I think soviets are supposed to use elite infantry and snipers to fill out their ranks to better combat German infantry. A PPSH DP-28 or SVT upgrade would lessen the need for combined arms.
Well the thing is Conscripts already have this upgrade available. All the current situation does is forcing people to pick specific Commander every time to get it. Your post and the one you are replying to therefore make no sense unless you are both arguing for taking PPSHs out of the game completely.
You won`t help variability by arguing for status quo because people will just keep going with the same Commanders and PPSHs anyway... On the other hand you can get more variability by making more Commanders viable as I suggest. |
I play almost always 2 v 2 and Soviet tier one just seems so lackluster now. I used to like it a lot (for the longest time tier 2 was in rough shape) but after the German scout car got buffed to use machine gun/cannon simultaneously and the Soviet sniper had its shoot speed reduced significantly it just seems like tier two is the tier of choice now.
It has:
Sniper: 360 MP cost, and just gets wrecked like crazy as soon as German scout car comes out. Even if you retreat as soon as you see it, retreat paths are unreliable and the German scout car moves bloody fast.
Jeep: really, REALLY flimsy.
Penal battalion: I have seen very few people who have been impressed with this unit.
Compared to tier two units, the tier one units seem to fall off mid-late game a lot harder.
What do other people think?
I don`t agree with your assessment of soviet snipers. The latest "nerf" was negligible at best, laughable at worst. Most of the time you shoot and reposition anyways. I would say the soviet sniper is still too strong, no let me rephrase that, OP. Scout cars are not a problem at all if you have Conscripts with AT nades and/or Guards around. If you don`t it`s your fault.
Tier 1 would be entirely worth it just for the snipers alone. Early flamer scout car can be a great stepping stone to get into a better position, very dependent on what your opponent is doing though. Penals are irrelevant most of the time and could use a serious rework, I give you that. |
|
Just had an idea (rare but has happend before). If making PPSH upgrade non-commander-specific is such a hardship - I can`t understand why, I try to be as open and objective as I can but I honestly still haven`t read/heard a signle reason why not, seems like an improvement with no drawbacks to me - then we can achieve the same result (variability in Commander choices) in two other ways:
Give the PPSH upgrade to every single soviet Commander there is, I am sure they can sacrifice one of their abilities/call-ins for greater good.
-OR- and ze german fanbois will love this one (while soviet ones will want to murder me)
Take the PPSH upgrade away from the 3 Commanders that have it and out of the game for good. We all know Soviets are OP anyway.
...
Justfor the record and since sarcasm and irony are notoriously hard to recognize on the internet, I am joking.
Seriously Relic, don`t do this. |
It sounds like the next patch will even it out with using veterancy. In the stream it seemed like conscripts might get vet faster to make up for the damage discrepancy. So I'd wait till after the next patch to say they need a upgrade.
Thank you for the post but I don`t think this is relevant. I am not asking for a buff, I want more variability in terms of Commander choices. Even if they get better vet or something along those lines it will still be better vet + PPSHs or just better vet which would once again force your hand to pick the same Commanders over and over.
That being said, this is the first time I`v heard of this new vet system and I don`t know the nature of the changes, let alone the consequences so my reaction is very much first impression rather than informed opinion. |
Learn to play? What is your rank? How many games have you played? Did you play VCoH?
The last question blew my mind. Apparently even if you were the god of CoH2 himself you are an absolute and utter shit unless you played vCoH 
I apologize for the off-topic but this is just too funny to ignore. |
i dont like this idea. fucking con spam noobs will never make any other unit. it will be boring and just blobs of cons. never again would we see shocks or penals. this is a bad idea. there is enough of con spam already. its dumb and getting more common. there are people who try to win in 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 and just build cons and gaurds the entire game.
You counered your own argument when you pointed out that people can already spam PPSH Conscripts and Guards if they want to. There`s no change in that, it`s already part of the game (how many times have I needed to say that already?). Plus if they increased the cost of the upgrade like some people suggested as part of the change, it would actually make life harder for conscript spammers. Haven`t thought of that have you? 
I actually think we might see more Shock Troops as a result of this change since all the Shock Commanders (apart from Soviet Shock Army) will become much more viable. And this is even more true for the units and abilities that are currently unlucky enough to be exclusively under a Commander without PPSHs. |
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
Heartless Jäger 
