Edit: This thread is an evolving flow of my thoughts on the matter, but the point of this post is to draw community awareness to my belief that the current design of the game is subtly flawed and needs addressing, in particular regard to the soviet faction. Any tips or feedback you can give me on my attached replay is welcome too!
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You've probably seen a post claiming one side is too strong 100x here already, but I affirm this is not another clueless whine thread. I've sunk 500 games into high elo+ ostheer play, and among many others, have beat the streaming celebrities' soviet multiple times each (except vonivan, t70 abuse ftw). I have seen what works and doesnt and know how to micro.
I'm genuinely looking for quality feedback on both my play and the state of the coh2 meta.
Check out this replay for a tough game and a perfect example of what I mean.
REPLAY HERE
Explain to me how to beat the synergy of soviet HTD scripts/at nades + guards + snipers + su85 + 30mun mines + munition float for whatever you want (cough strafe cough) in a 1v1.
Abstract
This is a long post because the situation is very complicated and requires numerous examples so you understand where I am coming from.
1. The soviet meta is fundamentally slightly OP when played by a pro because the units and economy synergize perfectly with their commanders and each other. The germans lack hard counters to certain units at various stages of the game, such as the inevitable t70 rush. Germans lack commanders, other than AG or ostruppen, that allow for radically different builds.
2. The imbalance comes from the sum total of small aspects about the many soviet units and meta that are strong acting in concert, and come to the fore when facing someone with good micro. Its less that a particular unit is game breaking than the entire faction under its current design is slightly OP because of how the parts all fit together.
3. New players will have trouble playing soviets because 1 on 1 units will lose to their ostheer counterpart. On the other hand a pro with good micro can use every unit's strengths and abilities at the same time for perfect combined arms. I don't believe the germans have an equivalent meta that flourishes in high level play and rewards skillful micro to that extent.
Everyone likes to claim german is OP because it takes less skill to use them... but that myth is brought back to reality when high level play just demonstrates the units arent strong enough to handle soviet role specialization (snipers, su85s, t70s) in a close match, short of a significant failure in play by soviet micro.
What I really want to see from this game in the future is the redesign of cheese units/abilities on both sides (looking at you ostruppen, precision strike, and t70s), what the german commanders in particular bring to the table meta wise, and the leveling of the economies to make a munition point just as valuable for a sov player as for a ostheer player. Risk/reward and unit counters at different stages of the game need to be looked into. COH is not a franchise like supreme commander where its fun to see units instantly pop to a flying death laser... the fun comes from being able to react and counter-attack.
I think when this incremental and gradual process moves along, the game will be more competitive and more fun for everyone. I don't favor either faction balance wise because both have rough edges that need smoothing. My point is that as far as I can tell now, the soviets simply need more changes or a redesign.
Relic and the community should admit this and make a coherent plan going forward to address the meta in the game. This thread is attempting to draw awareness to the need.
And at the end of the day its just my opinion, but I wouldn't post it without giving the issue careful thought and signing it as my honest opinion to improve the game for everyone, favoring neither ostheer or sov players
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MYTH: Soviet t4 rushes are countered by a competitive early game to prevent quick t4 unit proliferation.
REALITY: The reality is and has always been that soviet t4 is cheap enough to get with only a single fuel point held before or at the same time as german t3, or even t2. Not t4, but t3! Germans won't get t4 out except in a troll game or a desperate attempt to counter su85s like in my replay, which failed horribly.
Soviet early game is not hampered by teching as their t0 building provides all the utility they need to go toe to toe with t1 and t2 ostheer with doctrinal support.
For all intents and purposes the soviets have two t3s that they can choose between as they like. Many players would rush a t70 and then spam su85s because the cost of getting both buildings if you have 1 fuel reliably is basically irrelevant if you are holding your own.
1. Panthers cost twice as much mp as a su85 and 15 more fuel. Not including the fuel cost of the t4 upgrade and building. Panthers are not a hard counter to su85s IMO, which out range them and whose guns can penetrate frontal armor fairly reliably.
2. Soviets can afford to skip t3 because aside from a squishy and easily killed FHT (mines, guards, at nades, whatever), there is no rushed unit they need to be worried about.
3. People have been so busy spamming t70s/t34s that the old meta has fallen out of favor, not because its not OP anymore but because people got bored of it.
MYTH: Long ranged direct fire units are balanced
REALITY:
1. Weapon range is the single most important vehicle stat in coh2, and often with range comes weapon power per shot. The ability to shoot across the map from beyond a monitor's width of screen resolution negates any downside to move speed. This problem is not limited to the su85 alone, but the elefant is also stupidly long ranged.
2. Soviets have many long range options that feed each other, specifically snipers for AI and su85 for AT, with an su76 for fun if you want quick IDF. 120mm outranges 81mm mortars, and the precision strike ability is button to get a free kill on whatever squad is trying to cap a point or use a support weapon.
3. The unit cap is not that high in coh2, especially for ostheer with 4 man squad limits. Combined arms become extremely difficult to pull off when your squads and vehicles are picked off or forced to retreat one by one by snipers/su85s before even handling the rest of the support units on the field. Losing a vehicle or a couple squads from your attack to sniper units means you are permanently on the defensive and being pushed off the map.
4. Certain maps like langres, mowscow outskirts, pripyat winter and minsk pocket really emphasize the advantages of supported long range units.
Example One: 30 munition mines for a faction that doesnt require regular munition use to stay competitive leads to lane denial and map control, that in the long run, will lead to an even larger munition/fuel/vp? lead over the ostheer player. Lack of munitions will make it harder for an ostheer to field LMGs or rifle nades, which can be required to deal with conscripts using HTD and PPSH. The german completely lack a useful AI mine, especially at that price point. It would be much less effective against soviet squad sizes of 6. Losing 1-2 conscripts does not force a retreat like losing 2-3 grens does.
Example Two: No real hard counter exists for sov sniper teams. Soviet snipers are not vulnerable to counter sniping. Soft counters like AC and 81mm mortars are stopped dead by supporting units/mines and the luck factor. German snipers face more perils in use as they are a 1 man squad, squishy vs IDF (120mm precision strike anyone?, or just unlucky RNG), many IDF cdr abilities, zis IDF, su76 IDF, whatever.
Sov snipers synergize well with 30 munition mines because they can instantly pick off the survivors of a planned ambush with impunity and almost no time to react. In this example the soviet sniper's dps is fine, what is OP is the fact that 30 munition mines are not a risky proposition for a soviet player to use. The risk/reward proportion is out of balance for that item and sov snipers take advantage of that.
Example Three: Near and dear to my heart is the fact that without molotovs, ostheer are unable to reliably control key buildings on certain maps in t0. Every game devolves into a rush by players to stand next to a fuel/cutoff's building in case the enemy shows up. Jump inside, win. Difference is the germans can be forced out by soviet molotovs. If you dont rush your fuel defensively as a german, you WILL be cutoff 2 mins in and vulnerable to t70 rushes. GG.
This is one of the best posts I have seen on the forums. I mostly play ost but I dabble with the soviets, its not because im a fanboy but because I do not find the soviets rewarding to play. Even if you are losing as sov it never feels like it, the MP drain is never bad and its very difficult to really suffer from any unit losses, you can do it all game long and still float major mp and munitions.
Even massive early game losses dont mean anything, in vcoh it could mean gg straight off the bat. Ost is always on the knife egde, losses mean something, mp drain and muni drain is real but soviets this is never the case even when run off the map for substantial times. They can just spam their way back onto the map. THere are fundemental flaws with the game and need to be addressed like you said.
THe way the sov side is designed is basically a spam army, and ost has to really be clever in the approach to anything. You mention the distance discrepancy which is crazy, the soviets gain great benefits from keeping their indirect fire and long range units passively, and its almost impossible to counter them effectively. They just build 2 120 mortars and sit back with su 85 and theres nothing u can do. Even great maneuvers fail as su85 it still too powerful ( combination of great Armour, health, range and rate of fire) one of those factors needs to be addressed.
Its like the soviet army has all the abilities that the ost need to counter sovs ( better mg that pins, better los for su85, precision strike for mortars, anti inf ability for at guns, mines that work, super tough and adaptable inf that are multi roles with no trade off)
All their support weapons have 6 men and nothing can easily wipe them out, you can flank with a vet 3 gren with mg on a at gun and still struggle to polish them off as they start retreating. It should never be like this, a weapon crew like at gun, mortar and mg should be toast if they get flanked, end of story.
The fact that ost only has 4 unit squads makes such a huge difference on the field, any death mean a significant loss and easier chance to wipe the squad off the map, the soviets never have to fear this at all.
There are other underling issues with the game that make it no where near the level of the original coh. It lies in the game mechanics, and unit response times as well as the lethality and consistency of damage from weapons.
Molatovs are the biggest joke in my opinion, as they have potential to wipe out any squad, and the muni cost is negligible. Never does soviet army run out of munis, you can spam the almost free mines, molatove and nades at will, there is no skill involved, no risk and no reason not to.
There is never a draw back to teching molatov or at nades, its always possible and always a no brainer while it costs 120 muni to get shrecks.. which are good but they are on a super expensive and super easy to kill squad. Combat engies are tougher to wipe out then pgrens.
I just watched a vcoh game where an offmap arty strike wiped out 3 suads in one shot, why are these sort of abilities so pathetic in coh2? Its a spam filled arcade game compared to the original.
The devs never respond to threads like this, and they are doing themselves a disservice. THey are so lucky to have such a involved community that it taking the time out directly to tell them excatly what needs to be changed, we have spent countless hours on both games and we know what is good and bad, when threads like this get made with incredible insight and care taken to explain issues they are no where to be found.
I run a business myself and the most valuable thing, that companies pay millions for is to get insight into their customers mind, and here it is and its all being wasted.
Seriously it doesnt take that much to determine what post is trolling, or some whineing idiot and what posts are done by great players or people with real insight into problems with the game but it seems to be anyone that puts up real points gets ignored and the dumbed down masses get attention.
I also have to say the actual feel of coh2 is really second rate, from the super ugly cartoon hud, to the slow inaccurate unit controls to the weak and indecisive physics ( men fly out out armoured car but when hit with arty they do nothing, when shot with rifle they fall then bounce really hard off the ground.. wtf is this? Have they never even seen vcoh? The physics and effects are on another world compared to this and really truly effects the way the game is played, maps get damaged and the way action plays our changes through the match, nothing of the sort happens in coh2 - the ground gets darker but the cover system is a joke and this has 0 effect on the game. Lets not forget the completely random and stupid grenade/molatov/rifle nade damage and to the childs version of damage tables and weapons balance.
They went from knife edge lethality and chess like strategy to a spam army clickfest with the falvour of the month army ( soviets) getting every advantage at the expense of balance, fun and strategy.
The truth is coh2 can be great, can be better then vcoh but as it stands right now its not even close. It requires a bit more effort and some changes and then we would have ourselves a fantastic game but it seems that the real voices of real fans are being ignored for whatever reason and everyone pays for it.
If you are from relic and you are reading this listen to when the real fans speak, ones that love the original game, know what they are talking about and take time and real effort to try to make this game better for everyone.
We as fans have a fantastic opportunity to get to liase with you guys from relic and you guys have the opportunity to get incredible insight and feedback from real fans so lets both not squander what we have and take advantage of this amazing situation to actually make coh2 a true successor to vcoh.
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
Heartless Jäger 
