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I actually managed to abuse the Panther's (Ostheer) turret rotation speed to solo one with a lone T-34. The opponent wasn't very good, but still. It needs some teeth.
I think this primarily comes from making it a true tank hunter; Panther, at its cost, should strike fear in anything 1v1 save IS-2s. Make it very accurate, with a fast turret rotation, up its speed a bit, and maybe a lesser accuracy penalty on the move. For the cost you're paying, and with its lack of AI power, the Panther should be a terror almost equal to a call-in heavy, capable of hunting down and destroying enemy armor. |
Greeb: Cons come "scaled" right out of the box, due to Oorah/Merge, 6man soak and cheaper reinforce. These remain eminent throughout the game.
Rest of scaling is handled as normal by veterancy, for which they have the same increases as Grens.
Ooorah and merge are utility, not scaling. That would be like saying Sturmpioneers are already scaled because they can lay special barbed wire and mines or something. They're useful abilities, but scaling as I understand it is defined by a unit's ability to get stronger/more effective as the game progresses. Conscripts ''scale'' by getting molotovs and AT nades, which they pay a lot of fuel to get, and those things pale in comparison to BARs/1919s, shrecks, or LMG42s.
And I still don't understand how ''6 men soak'' and ''cheaper reinforce'' are even arguments at all when 1) ALL Soviet infantry squads save partisans and CEs have 6 men, and that hasn't been unique to the faction since we got Osttruppen and 2) the conscripts are relatively no cheaper to reinforce than anything else. Unless you suggest that conscript's role in late game is to die in droves so that other infantry can actually do something useful. Which is pretty bad design when other faction's basic infantry never reaches that degree of irrelevance late game.
They have same veterancy as grens, sure. Detail is, grens get one of the best weapons in the game. Conscripts, well, don't. Even the doctrinal PPSh in the current meta is eclipsed by the LMG42. And while the cure is not necessarily to give conscripts an upgrade, I do feel the disparity is too large. They need some late game love to become relevant again.
Also, Woof, I saw one of the replays (the one on Karkhov), and from what I saw the conscripts became irrelevant to RedxWing's strategy pretty fast. He used them for capping and never replaced lost squads that I saw. His Penals kicked ass and took names, which is good, but they were in an almost ideal situation, in close quarters with flamers against waves of clumped infantry and trucks to satchel. The 120mm mortar was also given complete free reign.
Still, I'm going to try that strategy, see how it goes. Probably going to go Advanced Warfare rather than Defensive, Dushkas aren't terribly good. |
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Maxim spam is beatable. Get an ISG or, if you manage to hold on to fuel, a Stuka. Before that, draw fire with Volks and flank with Sturms. Later on, Falls or Jaegers from buildings can also be a nasty surprise. At worst, get your guys in buildings and hold out until you get the answers you need.
Snipers, however, yeah those are a real pain. You will rely on luck; flanking Sturms, a fortunate Puma shot, Stukas crashing on them, or as above spawning elite infantry on top of them. Remember that if your opponent went T1 he has no serious AT until he builds T3 or T4, try to exploit that with a flak HT. Still, there's no easy sniper counters.
After the early game, really, OKW has all the answers it needs to everything. They get powerful elite infantry, probably the best in the game, and their AT is nothing to scoff at; Pumas, Jagdpanzers, cheap Shreck sqauds, an actually good Panther, the feared KT, you have all the tools required to take down any Allied armor. And blobs? har. Stukas, Obers, MG34s, Luchs, and my favorite the Sturmtiger, you have lots of really good units. |
Dont worry. This discussion has been had dozens of times over, to zero effect, by far smarter, better and more knowledgeable players/posters than any of us here.
It pops up every so often when some sovboi gets particularly frustrated at not being able to spamspamspam Cons to do everything he wants, and instead occassionally having to tech or use Commander infantry, when mostly what they want is to just build Cons and then go straight to callin armor. That this is not entirely possible at present without some combined arms, pisses them off immensly.
So then we get these threads and all do a few rounds of square dancing, posturing and making faces at each other.
Often some suggestions are made about Penals (which pisses the Cons guys off even more, cos its Cons they want, not filthy Peepees. Hell, theyd even have to build T1 for that. No way, man.)
Stuff like that. Old hat, ya know.
I now use Guards or PPSh conscripts (team games only) as my mainline infantry for most of my games, and I didn't see anyone in the thread who wanted to make conscripts really powerful either, but don't let such things get in the way of your ''satire'' I suppose.
Me wanting conscripts to scale better doesn't mean I want to spam them. It means I would like them to be useful late game; not useful as in ''solos vet 5 Obers'' but useful as in ''doesn't have to turn tail and run at the sight of anything scarier than Volks''. |
Yeah, lets stick some PTRS, some SVTs and a few DPs on Cons.
And some armor, cos thats badass, and Cons are badass.
This is like totally good for their scaling, which is like really important, man (or something).
It would be good for diversity, cos with badass Cons, you would, like, totally still want to build lots of other infantry too, to sort of cool down their badassery so it doesnt like hurt the game with its baseline awesomeness (and axisbois would cry, we dont want that).
That way we can have a 6man sprinting and merging unit thats cheap to reinforce running around with lots of guns and some armor, cos Cons are supposed to be baseline badassery that scales in all directions.
Infact they are so badass, lets get rid of the ISU and instead have a big fat Conscript carrying a huge gun being super badass all over thr filthy Fascists.
And you accuse others of trolling.
@ wooof; thanks for those links, I'm going to watch those when I get home. |
You think rifles cannot do that? because they do. and once again your mg's are not supposed to get hit. second part 50 cals performs way better in buildings then the german mg's at its not a liability to put a mg inside a building.
Putting your Mgs in a building is just asking for them to be flanked/grenaded/molotoved/sniped/mortared/ect when playing against competent opposition. Once the 15ish minute mark has been passed, there is enough heavy ordnance on the battlefield to easily level buildings and make MGs taking cover in them into red little smears. It's not reliable and I very rarely do it; repositioning your MGs leads to better results I find.
And in my experience, rifles that try that get cut to ribbons by my MG's incendiary rounds, especially since vetted MG34s have such great suppression. If they use smoke that's problematic, but it's why you have support nearby. |
volks are the toughest infantry unit? first time ive heard that one. you said it yourself, volks arent offensive powerhouses in late game, but they fill a vital role. i would say cons do the same thanks to their abilities. merge, oorah, molotovs and AT nades are all still useful in the late game. without an lmg, grens scale just as well (or bad, if you want to look at it that way) as cons. would you say a gren without an lmg is completely worthless late game?
Volks are very tough with vet. As a 5 man Axis squad with up to 50% received accuracy modifiers at vet 5, they can take one hell of a beating, especially since they vet very fast with shrecks. I think the only tougher Axis infantry are vetted Obers and Panzerfusiliers, anyone feel free to correct me with the power of maths.
Overall toughest infantry are probably vet 3 Shock troops, however.
As for cons vs Volks scaling, as I play them the award goes to Volks, no contest. Even at vet 3 consctipts die fast to any good AI units, don't have the dps to properly support your other units, and unless they can capture a weapon or get PPShs are generally pretty deadweight. AT nades are nice, but any competent Axis player won't let you get close to use them most of the time, Ooorah or not, and if the vehicle is properly supported they usually have to retreat after taking fire on approach. Merge is a niche ability that's a lot of hassle for not too much gain unless you use Guards (not to mention it means you have your conscripts constantly retreating to reinforce back, not doing anything actually useful like capping).
Volks, on the other hand, gain the durability to stand up to most allied infantry for a time until renforcments arrives, or beat them with a lucky grenade. They need to bail if Shocks or 1919 rifles arrive, but apart from that they're hard to scare off and their received accuracy means they can get in position to fire their shrecks more often than Cons can use their AT nades.
Conscripts have utility, sure, not denying that. But their utility is not enough to compensate for their lack of proper scaling.
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this is a classic l2p . do you think that the germans have it any easier with the high dps of riflesquads? mg are not supposed to get hit period.
First, if you looked at my playercard you would see I play almost as much Axis as Allies in 1v1, and currently I mostly play OKW, being in the top 100 in 2v2 with them and Soviets which, while not pr0, is I feel Ok enough to discuss balance. You can kindly shove your l2p arguments where the sun doesn't shine.
Second, overperformance of a unit is no excuse for overperformance of another. Two wrongs don't make a right and to suggest so is just bad balance.
Third, MGs are not supposed get hit, ok so I imagine you would be totally fine if rifles or guards could stand in an MG42's field of fire and decrew it faster than they are being suppressed? I did it several times with Obers and Pfusiliers. Your Mgs will get hit so long as your opponent is not comatose. While the Maxim may be too durable, the M2 crew just dies too fast. |
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It's a good weapon, but a bit overpriced (280 MP for an MG that comes from T2?) and the crew is just way too fragile. Against Axis superior weapon damage, 4 men with received accuracy penalty just melts. It stops Volks and close-range infantry, but LMG42 grens and anything bigger can usually just outsnipe it.
The MG34 is not a great comparison point since I think it's a bit overpowered. At the very least it needs a price increase.
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A big problem is that the Jackson is bad at finishing damaged enemies. Once the Tiger retreats behind his AT gun screen, there's pretty much nothing you can do. Infantry doesn't move fast enough (and zooks are bad against tanks anyway), Jackson gets wrecked by Paks, what else do you have if the heavy retreats around a corner? Send in a Sherman and pray to the RNG gods he doesn't bounce on the tiger's rear? I'm not being facetious, has anyone found a reliable way to get a killshot?
It's a big reason people like E8s I guess; they can take a decent beating and actually can chase down fleeing enemies. Doing it with a jackson is way too risky, so many things can go wrong (sneaky shreck squad, mine, Paks, turning a corner and being face to face with the Riger...) and once the Jackson is comitted it has no escape mechanism beyond a slightly above average speed.
Not to say it's a bad unit. But it's very lacking in some areas, and the problem is that the rest of the US arsenal can't really help cover said weaknesses unless you happen to have Rifle Company. |
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