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Axis are more popular, that's a fact. I doubt the ratio is anything bigger than 55/45, but they still are. My queue times as Axis are easily twice as long if not more.
About the OP, some people will always call you spammer, especially if they are losing. It's the old ''if I'm losing, it's because my opponent is using X unit, not me sucking'' mentality. I had this guy trash talk me all game because I made a sniper, lost it, and made another. That's apparently ''spam''. To say nothing of people who complain about me having 4 rifles as US. Yeah sherlock, what the hell am I supposed to do until I get my LT out, build 3 ambulances? |
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I am Canadian and the only time I was sick was when I went to London. Make of that what you will.
I will also mail poutine and bacon to Hans. He desperately needs a buff. |
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SU-76 is never a safe option. Infantry can ignore it if not for its once a minute, easily dodged barrage. Light vehicles can outmanoever it easily since it has no firing cone. Tanks can barely be penned by it even if they expose their rear. Tank destroyers laugh at its face as they pop it open in 2 shots; I had a game where my Jagdpanzer 4 destroyed 7 SU-76s.
In a meta where P4s and Pumas are common on the Axis side, not to mention Tigers and KTs, there is absolutely no reason to waste even a drop of fuel on a unit that is only a threat to halftracks and badly microed infantry (the latter only once a minute). It needs to either be swapped, or to change role into a direct fire, anti-infantry platform. Make it akin to a StuG E and maybe it will carve itself a place in the meta. |
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The intent was never to shut down opposition. Merely to showcase a point I made. For a person who whines again and again that people misinterpret your words, you sure like doing the same to others.
Vet 0 comparison is to underline the difference between veterancy and upgrades. Veterancy is paid for in blood and accumulated over time, upgrades are a straight up power boost you pay once for, on top of veterancy. For that reason, the LMG42 upgrade is better than slightly boosted veterancy, and as soon as they have it the grens will still dominate conscripts, and can contend with any Allied infantry save Paras and Shocks. You cannot seriously claim the vet changes will make conscripts competitive by themselves, LMG grens will still be just better, and again I say that as someone who plays both factions a lot.
And about Ostheer having to sink ammo to get their LMGs, well isn't that the assymetric balance you're fond of? Conscripts have to sink 300 mp 30 fuel to get grenades and AT nades, while the grens obtain grenades along their natural teching and faust right out of the gate. They also sink ammo in Oooorah, which at 10 a pop can't be spammed either. They also sink more manpower via losing more men almost every single time. So that 180 ammo ''deficit'' is not exactly crippling if it gives you an extremely solid core infantry while your enemy either has to out-micro you or invest in elite infantry. |
As Ive pointed out, Cons and Grens are currently pegged to each other in terms of Vet stats.
They are identical.
Upsetting that with a Vet stat change would have a chain effect requiring someting be changed on Gren Vet stats as well.
Ultimately it would result, as I pointed out, in Cons scaling for free, alongside their utility, whereas Grens would be even more shoehorned into having to invest in LMGs, at cost, in order to stay competetive. It forces even more LMG Gren centric builds than is alreasy the case.
Consider a lategame situation with say 3Cons and 3 Grens, all at V3, the Cons would be scaling for free, as well as having Oorah/Merge, whereas the Grens would have had to pay 180Muni total just not to lose to them in DPS (let alone still lacking Oorah or Merge equivalents). This ontop of having 2men less worth of soak vs other battlefield units in a game stage where these predominate.
And when did the discussion turn to buffing Cons already at V1-V2 stages in the match?
I thought this was about V3 period of lategame?
I can also create a situation. 3 vet 0 conscripts vs 3 vet 0 grens with LMG. The conscripts get stomped. Or 3 vet 3 conscripts with the new vet vs 3 vet 3 LMG grens. Conscripts get stomped slightly less. Over the course of a game, 180 ammo is not a lot, certainly easier to accumulate than 3 vet 3 conscripts squads that have piss poor damage. that's for damn sure.
Vet is not free, you earn it in battle and with unit preservation.
Besides, unless you dominate your oppononent, vet 2 conscripts just don't happen before LMGs start hitting the field. Grens will still have the initiative, it's just that conscripts have a bit more of a fighting chance if they reach higher veterancy.
And, as several people have said time and again, the matchup is currently not balanced. There is no requirement to buff grens if we buff conscripts, just like there is, say, no requirement to buff the Easy Eight if we buff the Panther. It's not a convincing argument. |
I think this topic has been turned into a wish list.
There is a major flaw with the proposition of native weapon upgrade.
Giving Cons PPSH will make PPSH doctrines irrelevant.
Giving them DK-28 will basically turn them into Guards.
The only possible adjustment that can be made is through veterancy system but that's only if Relic is willing to do so and that's highly unlikely to happened when you consider their statements as it seems they are happy with Cons as they are right now.
In the words of the Penal Squad leader, if you aren't dying you aren't trying  .
But yeah, increasingly I think a boost to their veterancy is the way to go. Would also go into their flavor of being untrained conscripts turned into badass soldiers by the rigors of combat. |
I figure 15 sounds doable. Sort of like every 4th man for free, as compared to now.
This I don't agree with.
Would mean that at V1 they already beat vanilla V1 Grens and hurt Support Teams harder than now.
Furthermore, if scaling is tied to Vet, it basically means that Cons scale for free, whereas Grens for example have to pay to scale and remain competitive (and they would already be uncompetitive at V1 without LMG).
So? Volks get 50% received accuracy at max vet (which they attain pretty fast), for ''free'', while being cheaper than conscripts to boot. Veterancy isn't free, it rewards unit preservation.
At worst, make the 10% additional accuracy increase at vet 2. By this time, grens will have LMGs if the game is even close to contested, and LMGs still easily beat the new concscript veterancy. But at least it's going to be slightly more of a contest, and concripts that reach vet 3 will be able to take a bit more hurt while serving as punching bags and AT nade dispensers. |
Guy keeps attacking me. Thats hardly my fault or responsibility.
I've had civil and constructive discussions with numerous posters here on various proposals, as well as myself contributing a very lengthy and considered Penal proposal too here as a means to help alleviate the gap left in Sov infantry structure around Cons.
Back to topic and ignoring the hyperbole:
What is your specific and exact proposal for how you would change Cons?
Sure, it's not your fault.
Anyway, my proposal is to either decrease their reinforce cost when T3/t4 is built (to 12-15ish MP) if they get to keep the same stats. Still cost 240 to build one from scratch, but the ones you already have alive are now economically much less of a burden. Upkeep reduction could also be a possibility.
If their stats get to change rather than their price, it'd rather buff their veterancy than give them weapon upgrades. In addition to their existing veterancy, maybe give them 10% received accuracy and 10% increased accuracy, spread over their vet. I'd favor increased accuracy at vet 1 and received accuracy at vet 3 myself, but it could be the other way around. So they still scale less than grens, but get slightly better veterancy to compensate. |
Now stop it, you are destroying the thread in more ways than one.
No, you and Katitof are going on and on about your bickering while other posters are actually contributing.
Siberian and Cruzz have both come into this thread and said conscripts need some love. Along with the overwhelming lack of evidence that they are used competitively (bar one good player who relies more on penals and 120mm mortars from what I saw), this indicates they do need love. We can elaborate as to how they can be given some scaling, or we can stand there declaring Merge to be God's very gift to the dirty commies and nitpick over every single line the guys on the other side of the football stadium type. |
As I said, and you apparently conveniently ignored:
If Cons get a native weaopon upgrade option, in the same way that Grens have one, then it directly means Grens also would have to get 2 native starting abilities ewuivalent to Merge and Oorah, to keep asymmetric balance inline.
I suggest Sprint and Medikit, as they are sort of similar to Merg and Oorah and already have code.
Another Vet ability can be replaced into that slot.
Sorry if that is inconvenient for you, but you sort of have to remember other facrions when you are balancing, and not do it in a "i want this!" vaccuum way where you ignore how that changes balance for other factions too.
So yeah, Im ok with a Cons weapon upgrade, as long as its maintained in balance by compensating two native abilities for Grens too. Otherwise we end up with Cons simply being much much better thanks to not only also having a weapon upgrade, but also two native abilities, not to mention a 6man soak AND cheaper reinforce per man!
Not really rocket science to see that basic equivalence. Quite elementary, I think 
That's not how balance works. You don't buff a fine unit because an underperforming unit of the same type is buffed too. As Katitof said, Relic didn't upgrade P4 damage to 240 when T-34 damage went to 160. Because that's not how they do things, thankfully.
The problem is, the assymetric balance between grens and cons is not fine at the moment. Even accounting for conscript's abilities, they still scale worse than LMG grens because their DPS is so much smaller. Apart from Merge which is a poor man's (200 mp 30 fuel oh my) halftrack, the very only thing cons are better at than grens is Ooorah + AT nade, and conscripts have to pay for their AT nade, not to mention even with Ooorah this is pretty useless against a supported or properly microed tank. Meanwhile, LMG grens have a vast dps and range advantage over conscripts, which easily allows the Ostheer player to use no other infantry all game and still have them perform very solidly while only a-moving them. I should know, I do it. Conscripts are more micro-intensive than grens for much less return on investment and time.
Does that mean conscripts should match grens? No, because Soviets have other infantry options while Ostheer only has PGrens (and well, Ostttruppen if you wanna count them). A prospective weapon upgrade for conscripts (which I don't even favor anymore, a reinforce cost decrease at T3 like Siberian proposed would be OK) would not be the equivalent in dps increase of the LMG42, but a gap closer between the two units. Grens would still win, just not by the ridiculous margin they do now, and conscripts would be able to actually properly support the rest of the army as something else than punching bags, due to not having peashooters anymore. |
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