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Playing around both with it and against it some more, I've come to the conclusion it is indeed OP now. If it's decently microed (which really isn't hard at all), it's basically immune to anything save an aggressive M3 or early zookas, and even those are RNG based (M3's armor is hit and miss, zooks have shit accuracy at range) and relies on the Kubel being unsupported. A properly supported Kubel, you almost need an AT gun or a tank to take down, and thanks to its small target size even a ZiS is pretty luck-based when it comes to destroying it.
Infantry flanks I see no way to make it work unless you manage to corner it with 3 squads or something. It's way too fast to die to small arms fire unless the OKW player is comatse.
It really needs a fuel cost. Along maybe with a mobility nerf, since it's an MG that, right now, is really unrewarding to flank thanks to how easily it repositions. |
But blobs should be punished. That's the heart and soul of the CoH franchise. Why do you like the idea of crippling its suppression? So you can blob? I've seen you complain about axis blobbing, why should it be ok for allies to blob? C'mon man...
US rifles beat volks at every range. Remember the US roflstomp early game last patch?
Bazooka upgrade is a good counter and not expensive. Axis have to sacrifice anti-inf power to get anti-tank because of allid vehicles. I think it's fair that allies can be forced to too.
Rifles beat volks because apart from doctrinal units, US have no other early game options whatsoever. OKW on the other hand has Volks, Sturmpios and Kubel, 3 units which work incredibly well together. You are not supposed to beat enemy units with Volks until they get grenade and veterancy, that's why OKW is the only faction with 3 viable combat units right out of their HQ.
All factions blob, and it's not the Kubel that will stop a big blob. You need arty or tanks for that. Blobbers are almost always poor players anyway, we shouldn't really talk about them in balance discussion.
As for bazooka, you are kidding, right? Forking over 25 fuel and 60 ammo to kill one Kubel and be worthless against basically every other OKW vehicles? The bazookas that were also nerfed to only ever hit at short range, against a suppressing range 40 unit with a 10 target size that has the best acceleration in the game? If you force your opponent to get zookas and delay his actually useful units, the Kubel has already more than paid for itself even if it gets 0 kills. Axis get their shrecks with no fuel cost, and these are useful all game long. They're also going up against light vehicles that, at least, cost fuel and either require a tech building or an otherwise shit dotrine. |
USF vs Kubal, Wehr vs WC51, Wehr vs M3. Early light vehicles are jokes made by relic.
Yes. I've been against it since the beginning, especially with the DPS on those things. They bring too many balance problems, and are either OP or borderline useless.
Jeeps and motorcycles worked in CoH1 because they were fragile, very cheap and had shit DPS. They were sniper hunters, it was their job, and CoH2 light vehicles should have been the same. |
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As OKW, a Kubel counters them handily, as do Sturmpios (preferably in cover) with Volks support. Once you get your truck, Volks get vet and a grenade, you can start beating them back reliably, and their scaling is quite poor so once OKW elite infantry hits the field they start to fall off hard.
As Ostheer, however, they're a friggin nightmare. Only a well placed MG42 can stop them, and that's assuming 1) that the map allows your MG a clear field of fire 2) that the US player doesn't flank because that means instant MG retreat or die and 3) that no rifles with smoke are around. If they run around in well microed pairs, there's pretty much nothing you can do to stop them until the 222 is out, and usually this means the US player has taken most of the map by then and can get out a Captain to ruin your day further.
I do have some success mixing a pioneer squad with my grens. If not targeted, the little guys can inflict surprising amounts of damage. But that's a stopgap measure at best.
I think they need a cost increase. Currently they're too spammable for how much damage they do. |
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Having Sturmpioneers as an early game unit feels mighty fine after a game where I have to make to with conscripts. They still tear most early game units a new one, and with Volks or Kubel support they are uttter beasts. Don't see what's wrong with them. |
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It's not like it's hard to micro. Click somewhere, let it rip, click somewhere else when a flank start coming. Until enemy vehicles come out, it basically can't be killed by anything but mines or very poor micro from the OKW player's part. As US, you're basically SOL until you break out the M20. Smoke only delays the arrival of a proper counter and it's very easy to just reverse away from it.
Besides, even if it doesn't survive till late game, I have used it several times to gain an unsurmontable early game advantage, which as OKW can rapidly snowball into their beastly lategame.
For 240 MP, it's a bit strong. A slight fuel cost is all it needs. |
Good points!
To your comment about at nades, they have a high % chance to pen from the rear of medium vehicles, and a decent chance against heavy armor, although this is much less reliable. Also, bleeding a few conscript models to snare a vehicle is almost always worth it. AT nades/fausts are one of the strongest abilities in the game and cannot be overlooked, especially so with regards to conscripts that have oorah to help get in position.
Your point about molos is spot on and now that mass (4 plus) conscripts are less viable and I'm usually only building 1-2 of them per game, I almost never tech molos.
My comment on durability applies more than just to their received accuracy. Oorah can get you out of sticky situations or to reposition and the 6 models prevent random wipes from things like AOE explosions in general. So yes, the received accuracy does hurt and cons feel a lot weaker now, I just think we should be a little hesitant to call for buffs to a unit that can quickly get out of hand.
I think the conscript ppsh upgrade should serve to make cons a viable front line unit, as there are no commanders that include all of ppsh upgrade, shocks/guards and a late game heavy.
Also, penals and shocks are pretty beast now, guards felt the nerf bat pretty hard, but button can still be useful in a pinch.
The thing is, while AT nades are good and synergize well with Oooorah, a player that decently microes and/or supports their vehicle will be able to drive away while the main gun/pintle MG on his Panzer drops your (newly nerfed in durability) conscripts down to size. I still usually get them because they are usable in urban maps or when using mines/Truesight ambushes, but they alone don't justify the conscript's poor performance.
Ooorah is a good ability, that's for certain, but past the mid game it's pretty much only used to run away from scary stuff like PGrens or Obers. Charging in, with all the AI firepower being thrown around late game, is just asking to be MP bled at best, and to lose the squad at worst.
As for PPShs, the problem remains the same; it doesn't change that conscripts are too fragile to be a credible combat unit mid-late game. And Relic has made this issue worse. I don't want the upgrade to turn conscripts into Shocks, but I would like to increase its price (to 60-70) in favor of giving a durability upgrade, either in received accuracy or a 8 man squad perhaps. Currently the upgrade is cheap, but won't make your conscripts any less likely to be cut down on approach. And they still lose to most elite Axis infantry anyway even if they manage to close in.
Guards are good, yeah, but Penals? Honestly, if I make them work it's thanks to M3 and sniper support, followed by an early T-34. By themselves, they are a close range squad that doesn't do enough damage to justify the risks and losses you take while charging them. The flamer helps, and on urban maps they can shine, but their lack of any viable grenade and no AT means you pretty much have to win the game early if you use them. Because unless you get guards, you have no At whatsoever unless you backtech to T2 ot wait until you amass 200+ fuel for a tank/SU. I find that 2 (sometimes 3) cons 2 maxims into AT guns/shocks is much more reliable. |
Conscripts aren't supposed to be front line infantry in the late game. Their role in the late game is to keep tanks in check with at nades, just like volks prevent tanks from rolling you with their shrecks. They have insane mobility, a very reliable AT snare, a durable 6 man squad, and molotovs and ppsh if you want to buff their combat capabilities. Buffing their combat capabilities would almost certainly bring us back to the days of mass conscript spamming, because why would you build anything else?
Look at grenadiers by comparison, the changes they received don't allow them to stand on their own, sturmpios received a similar nerf. Conscripts still beat Grens when oorahing into mid/close range. Additionally, the focus on close combat units makes mgs much more valuable, as you can't just sit back at max range and snipe them down. Conscripts are still solid in the early game, but IMO making them scale super hard into late game would make them too much of a faceroll unit.
That's all well and good in theory. In practice and against decent opposition, AT nades only work against poorly microed vehicles (and Axis vehicles have usually superior Ai DPS allowing them to bleed conscripts on approach), molotovs have some of the lowest damage and longest animation of any grenade (with a price tag no less), their ''durability'' is kinda shat on by being the only infantry squad with a negative received accuracy modifier, and 6 men don't help you much when their DPS scales fairly poorly and they bleed like snuffed pigs as soon as any decent AI weapon is pointed their way.
Meanwhile, even with the LMG nerfs grenadiers can easily stand up to anything save Shocks and upgraded paras. You can very much use grens as your only mainline infantry if you support them with Mgs and vehicles. Doing that with conscripts is sub par at best since they bleed far more manpower, and suicidal at worst since your infantry fires peashooters at anything with veterancy.
The game has changed a lot since the (brief) window of conscript spam. OKW late game has no problem pounding any infantry to dust with their own elite troops, and Ostheer has access to two really good infantry units, now that PGrens are buffed as they should be. Making conscripts less shit late game certainly wouldn't change the meta in any significant way.
What I find curious, is that for all three other factions spamming their basic infantry is a valid and usually effective strategy. But if Soviets can do it, suddenly it's OP and faceroll? Come on. |
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They should be more expensive (290-300 mp) if they're going to have those stats. It's a bit too easy to move them around in pairs and wreck basically anything but a Kubel or a well placed MG42. |
Liberal use of oorah works to get cons into their effective range I use it on any important engagement. Yes later in the game they are just capping machines with an incredibly useful at snare. Similar to Volks.
On a side note penals actually fill their role of stand alone infantry quite well now. Triple vet penals are beast
Oh and lol at the posts saying that your sick of being forced to use combined arms. I actually like conscripts in a supportt role. At nades are still awesome and they still do enough damage to easily flank an mg. I don't understand the fuss. 3 maxims with 2 cons and a shock trooper squad is insanely fun to play
IF you can get your Penals to vet 3. Which a good opponent won't let you, because they are a close range squad that have no way to close the gap, have a lackluster ''grenade'' and aren't particularily tough. They can easily become a big Mp drain, especially against OKW who can shut them down pronto with a Kubel, never mind the shiny new flak HT of doom. Not to mention choosing them basically forces you to get Guards for your AT unless you like being utterly defenseless even against 222s until you fork over the fuel for T3-T4.
Volks are also much better mainline infantry than conscripts, speaking as someone who uses both. They're insanely durable with vet, get the good shrecks, don't need any fuel investment to scale, and a most importantly they aren't a big MP bleed. I know I would switch my conscripts for Volks in a heartbeat.
The problem in your example is that Maxims and Shocks pretty much always do the heavy lifting (I know, I use this build a lot too). Your conscripts are here to die instead of your Maxim crewmen and toss AT nades against poorly microed vehicles. If you're lucky they get kills against the infantry suppressed by the Maxims. But the conscripts are by far the least useful unit in the trifecta, you could remove them and Shocks + Maxims would still function very well so long as you have AT backing it up.
The conscript buff is a step in the right direction overall. But they are still the most lackluster basic infantry in the game by a relatively big margin. |
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