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Thread: SU-85; The Thread28 Jul 2013, 19:27 PM Jump back to quoted post28 Jul 2013, 16:21 PMHissy Buff the Panthers range to 60, problem will rectify itself by Panthers actually doing there job and being able to hunt down SU-85s without dieing. As opposed to current situation of the SU-85 taking no damage whilst killing a Panther +1 for Panther not doing its job. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Metascore User Score 1.7 Ouch!26 Jul 2013, 16:42 PM Are you expecting a 100% accurate depiction of events in a game that is only based on the 2nd world war? The main point is that it is supposed to be entertaining. The game takes distance from the communist regime. There isn´t only a Russian audience. I think especially for Polish people it was important to show how the Soviets (not Russians) didn´t help them to free their country but established just another regime (see the polish Partisan mission). The regime is portrayed in a bad fashion. I didn´t get the image that the Russian soldier was a "coward" etc. In fact there are heroic moments, where they save the officer and the main person is also sympathetic. What´s next? German people being offended that their engineering skills in form of tanks aren´t portrayed properly? In: Lobby
Thread: SU-85; The Thread25 Jul 2013, 11:58 AM Jump back to quoted post25 Jul 2013, 05:28 AMMarxist Oh boo hoo, you can't attack move win with Panther spam anymore. The horror. Acting like Su85 is some god unit that can't be touched is laughable. Play better. Well as for the "play better stuff": I´m Level 55 right now. I can win with both factions. I definitely have more wins than losses (if that´s the all mighty indicator for being good at this game) . The example of the Su-85 being op mostly comes from me using it. All I have to do is hitting the reverse command (so pro) and win any tank engagement. As a decent player I never have my Su-85 unattended. There is at least a script squad nearby or a mine in my path of reverse. Any German tank is going to be crippled at close range or is going to get blasted at long range. And I have fought players using superb tactics: Using smoke, other units as distraction to bait my Su, Schrecks, Panzerfausts to cripple the Su-85 (which still reversed at a decent speed out there) and won the majority of those situations. As a German player however -in order to win - I´m forced to either totally avoid tanks (is this really how the game is meant to be played?) or almost totally avoid attacking with them at all (is this really how a tank is meant to be played). The Su-85 can be countered, but it is still OP. OP meaning it is way to good for cost. It totally ignores the concept of combined arms: Vision range, gun damage, gun range, reverse speed, decent armor, a relatively low price - all in one unit. As for the attack-move Panther argument: This is simple trolling of yours. An attack move Panther unattended will get either AT-naded, rammed, buttoned or simply mopped up at close range. One should think that a high cost tank with a dedicated anti tank gun is able to fire at Su-85s. Yeah the Su-85 is a tank destroyer, it has that name going for it. But the Panther was a tank destroyer by nature also. It was that in reality (okay you can ignore that) and it was that in coh1 (it was nice there). At that cost it should be a threat, but god forbid Germans actually get heavier tanks which are effective. Mind you im proposing the Su-85 nerfs only with a buff to T-34s. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SU-85; The Thread24 Jul 2013, 20:58 PM Jump back to quoted post24 Jul 2013, 19:52 PMMarxist Oh, the P4 and Panther aren't mobile now. Gotcha. And they can´t shoot back most of the time. The problem with the Su-85 is not its´ damage output or armor, but the fact that it can totally avoid being shot at . It´s reverse speed is only slightly lower than the Panzer IVs´ and Panthers´ forwards speed. Not only that but it can shoot further. It´s totally awkward to have a unit ingame you can´t attack properly. Germans need something that can keep pace (a Pak can´t run after a Su-85 aka not very mobile) and still be able to shoot back (Panther and Panzer weirdly being totally incompetent in that role). Jump back to quoted post24 Jul 2013, 19:52 PMMarxist Yeah when you use a Panther like an AT you deserve to lose. Facepalm, facepalm, facepalm. So much fail. Well it obviously is a hard counter to infantry, isn´t it? And now without sarcasm: The Panther is the iconic, ultimate, counter to tanks, or at least it should be. It sucks versus infantry and comes at a high cost, yet can´t shoot back at Su-85s. So: I pay 165 fuel 440MP on a unit that´s not supposed to counter tanks but also sucks versus infantry. Tell me what do I use it for then? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SU-85; The Thread24 Jul 2013, 19:44 PM Jump back to quoted post24 Jul 2013, 19:22 PMMarxist Panther is already a better tank killer than Su85. Wrong. Most of the time I beat Panthers with Su-85 1 vs 1. Panthers are not even getting off one shot at my Su-85. There is no sense in having better damage and more health on that Panther if your tank cant hit the target; neither with the gun range nor with the reverse speed of the Su-85. As of now the only thing any Russian player will do: Hit reverse command and shoot the Panther into pieces. Germans need something mobile and non doctrinal to shoot back. This is a role where I could see the StuG in. Paks won´t do shit as the Su-85 can easily reverse. If your opponent isn´t a total imbecile the Su-85 will receive 1 hit from that Pak and that was it. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SU-85; The Thread23 Jul 2013, 10:21 AM What also matters is the lack of identity for StuG and to some extent the Panther. Germans simply cant fire back with non doctrinal units. I think the StuG could mostly stay as it is, but with slightly more splash and range increase to the SU-85s range. Thus it will still lose to the dedicated tank destroyer in a 1vs1. But StuGs could fire back at it when it is shooting and popping out in the Fog of war. Thus you can´t totally avoid being shot at with your SU-85s. Two StuGs might even take it out. The Panther is only good because it is fast and can take more beating than a Panzer IV. Yet I fail to see its role. Shouldn´t the Panther be dedicated anti tank also? It is meh at best versus infantry and comes at a high cost. Yet it sucks versus Su-85s. AK^tm is right, your best bet beating SUs is to totally avoid tanks. I usually avoid T-3 and T-4 as soon as I see Su-85s on the field and/or see the bulletins pushing Su-85s on the loading screen. This way I can spend more on infantry and gain the map control. But having to avoid all tanks as Germans is surely not how this game is meant to be played, is it? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SU-85; The Thread22 Jul 2013, 16:06 PM Hey! I have been lurking around the forum for some weeks now and finally decided to register. I´ll try to add my - hopefully constructive - comment to this topic. The Problem The Su-85 is flawed in my honest opinion. There is a serious issue which results from the following points: 1) CoH2 is/should be about combined arms. 2) The SU-85 breaks this concept. It has superior range, superior speed - even in reverse, can spot for itself, has good damage output and decent frontal armor, relatively low cost. 3) Soviets don´t have any competent counter to armor coming close to this. This results in an annoying spam of SU-85s in a lot of games. Especially the combination of reverse speed, range and spotting abilities make it almost impossible to flank it or even get to shoot back as Germans. Everything an even moderate skilled Soviet will do is giving the Su-85 the command to reverse. The solution (my opinion) 1) Nerf the SU-85s reverse speed so it can´t get away as easily when being flanked. 2) Increase the StuGs and/or Panthers range to the same range as the SU-85 to at least be able to fire back at it. 3) Give Soviets other solutions to deal with German tanks. a) A buff to the penetration of the T-34/76 to the sides of Panzer IV and Panther and a small damage increase would be nice. b) T-34/85 needs to be non doctrinal and maybe an update for the T-34/76 for munitions. 4) Introduction of a SU-100 with more frontal armor and better gun. However late in the game and high price. This of course only with a fixed reverse speed. 5) Buff to JS-2 and Tiger I think/hope this would fix the incredibly boring SU-85 spam. It´s simply annoying if the vehicle outranges everything non-doctrinal and immediately zooms out backwards, if you try to approach it as a German player. Influence of realism on the game (my opinion, you can skip this if you want ) I´ve seen realism arguments coming up in these forums. While I agree that it is a game and realism shouldn´t be the biggest aspect of adjusting the factions, I liked how the original CoH was still very influenced by it while maintaining balance. There should be a proper reflection of certain aspects. By this I mean: Russian non doctrinal tanks shouldn´t outrange German tanks. It was exactly the other way around in the late war. Panthers and even Panzer IVs were the ones outranging Russian equipment (except ISU-152s), not vice versa. For the sake of balance give them the same range, but don´t flip the roles. Imagine I develop a game about the medieval times, the Battle of Agincourt to be precise. There where the British fighting with longbows and the French fighting with crossbows. The British won because they outranged the French with their longbows. Now imagine in the game you give the French´ crossbows (Su-85) more range than the longbows (Panther)- that doesn´t make sense to me. Well, those are my two cents. In: COH2 Balance