No.
It needs to be possible to counter snipe. 2 Models gives an insane advantage, regardless of model HP, since it can't be counter sniped.
I'm all for diverse armies that play different, but this is the one case where every unit needs to basically be the same, save for ROF, which needs to be scaled to the average mainline squad size it's facing as well as MP per model cost (essentially, the allied ones fire slower).
Now that the 2-model sniper is gone, I would be fine with removing the Ost snipers Vet ability. The brit one needs to stay though, since it's the closest thing they have to a snare. |
I still don't see how a blizzard could really change an outcome of a match of two good players. You got informed before the blizzard, so you could prepare. And you would use different strategy while it is on that you would surely learn to use after some time if they didn't remove it. For example snipers were designed to work better in blizzard. Or you could attack with your vehicles without a risk of getting loitered to death. Some players just didn't want to adapt and pressured for the removal.
As for crits. I do agree that current system is better than the old one, but on the other hand coh1 still uses the old system and everybody seems to think that game is more competitive than coh2. Maybe in the end it is not as important as people have thought?
The problem was it basically forced a 'pause' in the game, which wasn't fun for anyone. If you're in the middle of some big push and a blizzard hits (it was only 30s or 60s warning, iirc), you basically had to stop, since your infantry became incredibly slow, could freeze, and (iirc) had lower view dist. That gave time for the defender to reinforce, get new units, heal, etc.
As for alternative tactics, like you listed, snipers are only available for 3 of the 5 factions, and pushing your vehicles in unsupported is just asking to lose them.
Basically, it introduced a random element that made camping easier, which no one wants in CoH.
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Rifle nade is fine? Not sure why it would need a change. Yes, it has more range, but it also has an incredibly obvious animation, and comes on a 4man squad that is both squishy early on, and awful at medium/close range for basically the entire game. Also the further you fire it the longer the travel time, so max-range rifle nades are incredibly easy to dodge.
Given how modders hate literally everything and anything that can wipe squads, I wouldn't be surprised to see nades have this kind of reduction across the board or plain 60 damage in the future.
If they could make it a CONSISTENT 60 damage, that would be great. The problem right now is that the damage is incredibly variable; sometimes it can insta-wipe a 5 man squad at full HP, other times it doesn't wipe a single model. I'd trade the RNG for consistency any time. |
Like others have said, a lot of the criticals, environmental effects, etc. were removed because they really weren't that fun to play with in competitive. Random blizzards could massively change the outcome of a battle, slowing down units just resulted in fewer tactical options in a map, and the half-dozen vehicle criticals were far too random to be useful. In some cases, a vehicle at 1% HP could take several more hits, if each hit applied a damage critical.
They are still there, not in automatch.
There's still a few frustrating patches of deep snow on some of the maps in ranked; mostly in 3v3 maps.
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With all due respect, we are not in the same level on the discussion nor in the game ladder.
Please, no more comments on my thread. Thank you for your cooperation.
Array isn't wrong, though. Pretty much any sov vs. Wehr game turns into double snipers + penals/guards/con spam, and it's incredibly difficult/frustrating to play against. I'm by no means "pro" (usually around 100-200 in 2v2, but lately a bit lower), but when you're beaten easily by players who should be around the same skill level, something is wrong.
You don't even need to open with double snipers. Soviets have no problem holding ground vs. Wehr via normal means, so bringing in snipers mid-game (instead of rushing Su76s, just get ATGs) can really change things.
It works in 4v4 as well, pretty much the same build, too.
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Relic removing every element that made the game interesting or diverse, soon UKF, Soviets and OSt will be mirror factions.
We now have the old kubel turned into a generic light vehicle without the suppression cone, American mortar, 222 becoming a premium vehicle like the T-70, Volks getting a generic AI upgrade losing their AT role, one man soviet snipers.
Single BAR rifles and brit mortar squad mirroring the wehr one coming the patch after next you heard it here first.
And I hope you're right.
While the massive differences in design are fun to play with, it's obvious that the ability (or even possibility) to balance some of those design choices was never there (see "sniper in scout car" near release). As a result, we have inherently OP/UP units that can't be balanced due to their design.
For example, the mortar pit is basically a 400mp sink against decent players, since it's incredibly easy to counter. However, since it can't move, the only way to make it effective in combat is to either increase its ability to deal damage, ability to take damage, or cost. Increasing its ability to deal damage would result in it massively over-performing, due to its double-mortars. Increasing its ability to take damage makes it incredibly difficult to counter (see before DBP), and increasing its cost would make it nonviable in any competitive sense. In this case the only solution is to replace it with a normal mortar, since it is much easier to balance.
The same goes for the soviet sniper, due to the soviets early game AT capabilities thanks to AT nades and PTRS.
This doesn't mean that all the factions need to be identical, though. The dynamics between 4 man squads and 6 man squads, specialized tanks vs. generalized tanks, various indirect fire, and faction specific strengths and weaknesses give a lot to play with. The intention of these changes is to simply lower the variance between these differences to make them more manageable. |
Yes, it needs to happen and the scope of the changes is good.
CoH2 is by no means a perfect game; there are still glaringly OP/UP units and strategies that need to be ironed out. This patch seems to address a good amount of them (but not all), and will hopefully move the game closer to being 'fully balanced'.
That said, I would guess that we'll need at least 2-3 more patches after this one to address everything, including likely over-performing stuff added by this patch (it's likely that the 222 meta will be back). |
Make spam unachievable. Make the sniper 82hp, spotter less, and make it 400 or more MP. Getting 2 snipers and a single support infantry is then minimum 1040mp. Thats 4 mainline squads and a lil smidge extra reinforcements. Flanking will still be rewarded because the spotter is squishier (plus buffed counters) sniper is still unique. Idk why they keep trying to fit units into special cookie cutter moulds when its clearly different when its clearly not designed to fit. Embrace its design and make the price fit the unit instead of making the unit fit the price
The problem isn't the buy-in cost, it's the reinforce cost. With your changes (82hp sniper, lets say 41hp spotter), it's still a 90mp reinforce cost COMBINED with the ability to 'save' your vet. Your change could work, but the reinforce cost would need to be around 200mp for it to work, otherwise the ability to save a 360mp squad + vet for 90mp is going to be imbalanced.
The only "no design change" I can think of, that would allow for the Sov sniper to stay how it is currently, is to make losing 1 model stun the squad for 2+ seconds. That way it couldn't self-counter snipe, it couldn't save vet by retreating instantly, and having multiple would be risky, since they could all be caught easily. Of course, that would be an incredibly frustrating mechanic to play with. |
Unfortunately, it's required.
The current meta in basically every mode for soviet is Guards/Penals + 2 snipers. The MP drain early on is too high for axis to fight the infantry, and it delays T2 long enough for the 222/FlamerHT to the useless when they show up due to PTRS/Satchel/AT nade.
Making it one man is the easiest, and most logical solution. It allows for Axis T1 to counter snipe (removing the problem) and for OST to chase more effectively.
While the sniper team was an interesting idea, it's pretty clear that it doesn't work; it's just surprising that it took this long for the change to be made, when the problem was evident in alpha/beta/1.0 release. |
Well, I guess I'll say it:
Sov sniper change is the best change in years - I've literally been asking for it since before release. The two model squad was inherently imbalance since it resulted in sniper wars favoring one side massively, when it should always have been a contest of skill.
That said, I think the accuracy vs. buildings should have been standardized to 50%, not 100%. Being able to drain MP that fast from buildings will really change how some maps play out, since early MG placement won't require a bunch of mortars/smoke/nades/flanking to counter.
The other changes seem pretty decent, but I'll wait to try them - especially the massive changes to mortars.
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