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Really unsure as to how to counter this, especially in mid-game (2v2 random, around #100 on ladder).
Most games seem to go fairly well for me until this thing shows up, at which point it's almost an insta-loss when used by good players. It forces my infantry to move, which is fine for Volks w/ STGs, but really ruins PFs. With its accuracy on the move, it's extremely hard to counter with infantry (especially with double-upgraded infantry covering it), and very risky to attack with tanks due to AT.
Raketen creeping is not possible due to large amounts of infantry on the map, especially on narrow maps like R&M.
For OST it's a similar story, with it causing my MGs to be basically useless, especially on maps with little/no buildings. At least there I can get some pshreck squads, but that has the same problem as OKW.
Any ideas?
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1.6 is out; notes here (scroll to the bottom)
Commanders part 3 is out notes here (scroll to the bottom)
Over all, it looks pretty good. There area few points I really don't agree with (or don't understand).
1.6 patch
Pak Howitzer population cap from 11 to 9
There are no other changes to this unit; it's pretty good already, so getting a straight buff seems strange
Universal Carrier WASP cost reduced from 90MU to 70MU
This unit is already pretty great, and the upgrades come very early, making it hard for OST to counter it. This will just make the flamer come even earlier (and there's no changes to it), making OST even harder to play vs. brits. I would be fine with this change if the carrier was made either weaker (lower HP/armor) or the wasp had less range (match the infantry flamer range).
Commanders part 3
M83 Cluster Mines The paradrop uses Green smoke to confuse the enemy
This would work if "green smoke but it's actually an offensive ability" was in the game already; instead it's inconsistent with every other ability in the game (nothing else does this) and will only confuse new players. It needs red smoke like every other offensive ability.
Opel Blitz Reinforce Truck costs 200 manpower and 25 fuel
25 fuel for a non-attacking, dock-locked transport/reinforce truck seems a bit much, especially if it has the same armor/HP as the resource variant (made of glass). Maybe 15 or 20 fuel?
Heavy Fortifications Only decrews when both models are lost. Can operate at 1 man
The entire problem with this unit was that it COULD be decrewed. Now instead of taking 1 sniper shot to take it out, it just takes two; or anything explosive, flaming, etc. Even with the other changes (which seem good), it still makes no sense to build it when it can be taken out so easily; it makes even less sense when compared to the bofors (which is non-doc), which can't be decrewed.
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Great changes, looks like a lot of the 'close to good' maps will be enjoyable now.
D) Before you blame me now that Moscow has still 2 version and is in the mappool
This is probably the only change I don't agree with. Even with there being differences between the two maps, they're still too similar to justify having both. In addition, if you're like me and really don't like the map, you end up spending two vetos to not play it.
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Now as far as tanks go, you are right, Ally tanks can do ok against infantry, but I think that armor is the key to winning the game, and allied tanks can't hang late game. Almost all Axis infantry are equiped to deal with light tanks and medium tanks. Seeing as these tanks are paper, the axis tanks just need a shot or 2 to end them. Either you push hard and fast early as Allies, or you end up losing the late game.
This might be why you're seeing axis being powerful late game. Allies can't (realistically) do a tank all-in and win, it just doesn't work. Like you said, axis will have a ton of AT squads, AT guns and AT-tanks that will simply wipe all the tanks very, very quickly.
What is needed is combined arms. As I was saying earlier, allied infantry is (mostly) much better vs. other infantry than their axis counterparts; this is key. PGrens with shreks will only have 2 STGs per squad, Sturms are pretty weak, and all axis weapon crews are small (3-4 man AT). Combined with poor AI power from their tanks, it means you have a massive advantage with your infantry.
Push with the double-upgraded squad of your choice (preferably with vet), and support it with some tanks. If you run into AT, your infantry will get rid of it very quickly. If you run into AI, your tanks can actually handle that very well. The only thing you need to fear is heavy AT (Panther, Tiger, KT, JT, Ele, etc.), but without infantry support, those are incredibly fragile and slow. You can even use your faster tanks to block the slower heavies (get behind them and hit 'stop') making them very easy to take out.
When I play axis (Mostly OKW, because OST is insanely hard right now), I rarely get many heavies for this reason. I usually get P4s (get rid of said double-upgraded infantry) supported by rakettens and shrecks. Probably the strongest AT I usually get is a single JP4.
2) Top 400 RANDOM in 4vs4 does not mean the same: Reason: Too often the matchmaking is fail or your randommates bugsplit or ragequit or leave in the first mins... So its kind of a lottery. It can but not have to mean: you are not that good.
I wouldn't say "kind of"; it's absolutely random. I've gone from top 40 OKW 4v4 to ~900 based purely on bad match ups, people quitting, people DC'ing, etc. Some days are good, some are bad. Don't take 3v3 or 4v4 very seriously.
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Axis are easier to play. (I can expand) Less micro intensive, have better armor, better AT, better AT weapons.
3v3 and 4v4 are not balanced because of resource spread and strength of Axis late game units.
Now discuss this if you wish. What are your thoughts on this?
Second point is true: 3v3 and 4v4 basically only work if you're not looking for anything competitive. When I play those modes its for crazy stuff like 3x LeFHs or other nonsense that should (and would) never work in the better balanced modes.
The first point is very debatable. For infantry, I wouldn't agree that axis is easier. OST Grens are basically made of glass and cost an incredible amount of MP to reinforce, especially for their performance. Once they hit vet 3 they're decent, but I'd take double-barred rifles, double-brenned tommies or even penals over grens every single time. PGrens are a bit better, but are still far too expensive considering what they lose to; and they have no long-range power.
OKW has it a bit better with their mainline infantry being somewhat competitive, but they have NO long-range power. Vet 5 Volks will lose to vet 0 tommies with double brens at long range. Even vet 0 rifles w/ double bars will probably win. Close range with STGs they're a bit better, being able to hold their ground vs. most mainline infantry, but the current call-in meta means they're almost always facing shocks, rangers, commandos, etc. to which they always lose to at close range.
Compared to the availability of cheap, double-LMG squads (which can fire on the move, unlike axis LMG42 upgrade), Okw and OST infantry requires far more micro to use.
For armor, yes. Except for some outlying stuff like getting two tulip-rocket fireflys, which can pretty much insta-wipe any armor, axis armor is better.... vs armor. However, axis armor is pretty bad vs. infantry. Except for Tiger (doc callin), KT (280f, requires all tech buildings) and the P4, there's pretty much nothing that's good vs. infantry (Ostwind is debatable since it hits the ground too much). Meanwhile most allied armor is good vs. basically everything: the comet, sherman, easy 8, t34, centaur, m4C, etc. are all great vs. infantry.
And no, I'm not saying "allies OP pls nerf"; the balance is pretty good except for some really strong, boring meta stuff (penals...). It's just a gameplay choice. If you like expensive, specialized units, play axis. If you like less expensive, generalist units, play allies.
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Some of us would even take a Pak40 with no target weakpoint over the pupchen. Nothing more infuriating than seeing a tank make it out of a fight with a sliver of health because the pupchen did its special version of attack ground three times in a row.
Do whatever you want to the raketten, but please fix it hitting the ground 50% of the time. It's so inconsistent right now that it's basically impossible to balance. On the one hand, it might stealth 1-shot your damaged vehicle. On the other hand it might miss 3 times in a row by hitting the ground, while your AEC/T70/whatever wipes half a squad.
If you removed cloak, you could now avoid the AT gun entirely (especially do to its range), and even if you did get in range, there's a pretty good chance it'll just hit the ground anyway. At least with cloak it has a chance to be somewhat useful.
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So any word on "Map Magic"? At this point, the map pool is almost a bigger problem than balance. Every mode (1v1, 2v2, etc.) has pretty much required vetos, resulting in some very stale map selection.
Even if its just the removal of certain maps (why are there TWO Moscow outskirts?), it would really help the game. |
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Great to see this patch moving forward, but would it be possible to get some more in-depth reasoning to some of the changes?
The LeFH was basically required in large team games (3v3/4v4) to counter brit emplacements. The emplacements are small, so the accuracy in the FoW was required to do sustained damage (and even then, you're fighting brace, stand fast, repair stations, etc.). The same can be said of the vet 3 damage bonus. Previously, the LeFH seemed fine in large games, and was unused in smaller games; not due to it being bad, but there being better things to get even for 600mp (or 400/50).
The Pak 43 changes seem fine, but I'm not sure why it's still possible to decrew it so easily compared to the 17lbAT emplacement. While the 17lb is 400mp/75fuel/14pop compared to the Pak43's 350/45/10 (and has a better RoF), it's doc-locked, has no brace, no stand-fast, and can't be auto-repaired or healed. Does it need to be decrewable on top of that? |
I'm not saying buff them to pre nerf levels, but they're no where near their price value compared to the T34s and shermans.
But why does a brit non-doc heavy need to be good vs. infantry? The OKW panther costs 15 more fuel and is just as bad vs. infantry, while having almost identical stats. I could see the cost of the comet being lowered to around 480/175, but that's about it.
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1.4 looks great; pretty much every necessary brit change I could think of is in there. Only change I would disagree on is the buff to the Bren; double bren vet 3 tommies are incredibly powerful, even vs. Vet 5 OKW upgraded stuff.
Surprised no cromwell and comet buffs to scatter. Those units can't hit infantry for their lives since their nerf.
Rather not go back the comet being incredibly good vs. everything while surviving more than a Tiger... and not being doc-locked... or limited to 1 on the field.
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Doomlord52
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
