Both AAHTs kill the 222.
It takes three Panzershreck hits to kill an AAHT, and suppression doesn't stop them firing. Get a second Panzershreck squad (640/120/0 vs 520/0/20 to tech the Pak) and you'll probably kill it outright. An AAHT doesn't force you to sidetech T2 any more than an OKW AAHT forces Soviet to sidetech T2.
Yes, there are things which work against Panzergrenadiers pretty well, but those things also work against T2.
T2's off-meta and bad value even if everyone does switch over to AAHTs.
640/200/0 - schrecks are 100 muni per set on Pgrens, and you have to buy them as a set. Also, this assumes a vacuum where the AAHT isn't covered by rifles, which will eat schreck Pgrens since they have almost no AI (2x STGs) and are 4-model squads.
AAHT/Quad/Long-Range AI vehicles are exceedingly effective against T2-skip because of their range, which are less effective against normal T2 due to the Paks range. |
That choice is heavily undermined by the current state of affairs: the Pak requires 200 MP 20 FU of sidetech and the Panzergrenadiers don't.
The PAK also has a lot more range, higher RoF, higher damage, and can't really be suppressed.
If you see a fast PGren/Schreck squad, and no T2, just get long-range AI; the OST player will have no counter, or will be forced to tech. Additionally, Schreck squads have basically no AI, and are very squishy; cover your LVs with infantry.
Personally, I've been enjoying the T1/T2 skip a lot, simply because people don't know how to play against it. Rushing a T70 into my schrecks isn't going to work, but people keep doing it. |
Well yes, when you factor in they are way more cost effective and at vet can handle upgraded rifles or 5 man Tommies easy.
Pgrens with vet cannot "handle upgraded rifles or 5 man Tommies easy" with similar vet. They get demolished much like any other infantry squad. Double bar Vet 3 rifles / Double bren vet 3 IS are undisputedly the strongest, most cost efficient on-map squads in the game.
Even if you invest in a LV like luch/Stuart/wasp/AEC it's going to be negated by a cheap AT upgrade and spammed mines with their muni surplus, they don't even need AT guns.
Don't invest in an LV and try to push with it into shrek squads; they're designed to counter that kind of play. Go for an AAHT/Quad and suppress the shreks at range, they'll have no counter to it since they have to ATG.
As for the 'muni surpluss', between 100 muni shrecks, 60muni "bolster", 60muni LMG42, grenades, etc. ost isn't floating a lot of muni early game.
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As bad as it is, power creep has finally caught up with all the factions, and created mainline infantry balance - it just turns out people don't like it. At this point, there are pretty much two choices:
1) Leave it as it currently is, with possibly some minor tweaks here and there to price/build time.
2) Re-work every single on-map combat infantry squad.
People (myself included) have been saying that penals are far too strong for their time frame for years, but most just said "yea, it's needed because Volks/Grens are too strong vs. Cons". Now that OST has basically the same 'strong early AI' to counter the incredibly strong double-bar/double-bren combo that's also been going on for years, we're finally seeing that power-creep isn't the answer.
Realistically, i'd prefer option 2, but I doubt it's going to happen. It would take a TON of effort. |
Not really.
PF are far better designed the Penal or current Pg (although they do not seem to be cost efficient).
I don't disagree at all with this; but PFs are doctrine units, not mainline.
However, my point was, that PGrens were unused before this patch because they came too late to be good. Forcing an AI upgrade would mean that when they arrived, they would be (performance wise) worse than before, and require additional resources to become as good as they are now. This would entirely offset the resource/time saved by the current BP1/T0 setup.
Not really.
making unit very good and able to adapt as the game progress means that there is little reason to built anything else.
While I see your point, PGs AI doesn't scale nearly as well as other mainline infantry units like double-bar rifles or double-bren IS. If this is a concern, then basically all mainline infantry needs to be re-worked. |
I don't agree that skipping T2 is risky now.
No more risky than building T2, anyway.
If you skip T2, it means no ATG, no HT, and no 222. That means you're limited entirely to 100-muni, 34mp reinforce cost, infantry based AT until T3+. Any kind of long range vehicle based AI (AA-HT, Quad, etc.) has no counter, at all, until BP3 + T3 + 90f. Additionally, you lose your strongest garrison clearer AND mobile forward reinforce point (251+Flame) as well as your ability to chase LVs (222).
It's incredibly risky - people just aren't playing well against it, yet.
Lowering their AI and offering AI upgrades
Removing their AT upgrade and moving to a separate AT unit (which could use identical skin but different weapons)
Both of these kind of defeat the purpose of moving PGrens to BP1/T0; it was entirely to offer stronger AI squads earlier on. Forcing an AI upgrade would likely make them even worse than they were before.
Moving the AT to another squad also defeats the purpose, since that squad would likely be in T2, which means teching is again required, which means the move of AI-PGrens to T0 only 'rushes' them by 200mp/20f, which (iirc) works out to 30-45sec in most games. |
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Leave them as-is. Any other change means that T2 is required, which reduces interesting (and risky) build orders. |
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Vipper was pretty much spot on; it would be interesting to switch them to crewed weapons, but require a special squad to actually crew them ("Heavy AT Crew" or something), and then shift most of their price to the squad, rather than the weapon.
Right now, the PAK43 is 350/45/10pop and the 17lb is 400/75/14pop. Add the "Heavy AT Crew" 4-man squad (copy+paste of Pios) at 250mp/40f/12pop to brit/ost base, and then make the emplacement itself limited to one and cost 100/5/0pop for Ost, and 150/35/0pop for brits. Then, give both emplacements an "abandon" button, which lets the crew leave the weapon.
Ideally, this would make the emplacement less of a risk, since you could abandon it and save most of the resources, and more importantly, all of the vet. |
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No; let's not further buff one of the best mainline infantry units in the game. This would just further hurt OST and force them further into early call-in meta.
The problem right now is, as other have said, OKW. We could instead slightly adjust volks early scaling, and see how that goes. |
If it's only a 30 second delay anyways then there is no issue in having it tied.
It's only a 30second delay for Pgrens to hit the field; not a 30sec overall tech delay. It's more like 90-120s if you build nothing involving fuel, and don't MP-block yourself.
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Doomlord52
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
