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Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment2 Aug 2019, 18:04 PM Jump back to quoted post2 Aug 2019, 16:48 PMCODGUY Pretty much this. The only time the Pack Howitzer is usually effective is with it's autofire which depends on the Axis player being an idiot and clustering his units never moving them. Even then there is a lot of luck and RNG involved. It's hilarious to see people complaining about this unit. Look at this whole section of the forum. Its all Axis cry babies wanting to nerf some USF or UKF unit. OST is basically designed around team weapons and static infantry, though: MG42 - Core unit, Needs to be stationary to fire LMG-Grens - Core unit, can only fire when stationary, has incredibly long 'ready aim' time PAK ATG - Core unit, needs to be stationary to fire Mortar - Core unit, needs to be stationary to fire, good vs. suppressed units (from stationary MG42) In addition, all of those units are 4-model squads, and all the team weapons always have two of those models right beside the weapon. The only non-doc OST infantry that can "stay mobile" are: Pioneers, PGrens and Snipers. You can't make a build out of those. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment1 Aug 2019, 23:53 PM Jump back to quoted post1 Aug 2019, 23:42 PMSelvy289 The Leig is more just like a mortor than anything. Cloning the pack to be like the Leig would just make it a late mortor which usf already have access to at the start. Edit: so I think it should be more of a howitzer than a mortor. Except it would still have more barrage range and heat shells. Jump back to quoted post1 Aug 2019, 23:43 PMCODGUY Because the LeiG got buffed through the roof a few patches back and the only ones that ever cry for nerfs lately are Wehrboo Axis fanboys. So I went through all the patches in the last 3 years, and these are all the changes (the first change being when they re-designed the unit). Nerfs are in bold. Not exactly buffed through the rough, imo. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment1 Aug 2019, 23:07 PM I'm gone for 4 days and there's another 5 pages... neat. Not going go through and read it all, though. Why don't we just make the PAK a 100% clone (cost, squad size, stats, etc.) of the LeiG? Most people seem to think that the LeiG is in a balanced (or possibly slightly under powered) state, so that seems like the easiest solution. Design wise, they're already basically identical: Long range, indirect fire, can't retreat, requires non-optimal tech choices to unlocks... Really, the only difference is that the LeiG gets smoke, but that's because OKW has no non-doc smoke units. Jump back to quoted post1 Aug 2019, 22:34 PMCODGUY Because it's a USF unit. If it were an OKW unit they'd be complaining that it's cool down is too long. Except that the OKW variant, the LeiG, is objectively weaker, and no one ever seems to complain about it. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment28 Jul 2019, 01:07 AM Jump back to quoted post28 Jul 2019, 00:45 AMMazianni The range might make it theoretically still useable versus MGs, but that's 340 manpower (+the company command post vehicle teching) that you could spend on something that isn't completely useless at anything else Theoretically? It'll still work very well; you'll just need to actually control the unit, instead of letting it sit there. Also you can't factor in the tech cost entirely, since command post also gives you a "free" rifle squad, and access to ATGs and Stuarts. If you drastically nerf or remove autofire, it'll needs a deadlier barrage, period, and that's something I already know none of you would be willing to give, just like how price nerfs and teardown time increases all got handwaved in every other thread before this. (Which is hilarious considering the pack howitzer physically can not do all this squad wiping it is claimed to be capable of unless deployed in pairs, something a price change would heartily dissuade, as it is already difficult to justify the 700 MP expenditure unless the USF team is already winning and doesn't need that MP for tanks or bleed The OST mortar was nerfed across the board a while back, and given almost nothing in return, not sure why the PAK desperately needs compensation. I'd be fine with a slight adjustment to the barrage (i.e. faster cooldown), but there's no reason to increase the damage or AoE. Price adjustments/teardown time/RA would be dependent on auto-fire changes though, since they would need to be relative. And lastly, all this talk of it being impossible to shut this thing down in a team game with M36s and crap flying all over the place just takes me back to the other howitzers and artillery pieces in this game, as you could make the exact same claim that they are uncounterable, and it would actually stand up since, unlike the pack howitzer, they don't need to be right on the edge of the battlefield to operate. This isn't a great comparison. Something like an LeFH has no auto-fire (except counter barrage, which is a whole topic on its own), has a long cool down, is inaccurate, and can be heard across the map so you can easily move out of the way. In addition, static artillery can't move, and is susceptible to recon + offmap combos. It's also much more expensive, doctrinal, and usually behind 8+ points. It's more valid for mobile howitzers (preist, sextant), and I'd like some changes there, too (setup/tear down?), but that's a different topic. The most I'd take is upping the autoattack scatter to like, 8 or something, and removing the 1.25 RA penalty as a counterbalance so the thing isn't quite as easy to murder while it misses everything. That just shifts the problem to RNG, where now it's going to randomly wipe squads when in pairs, rather than consistently. Preferably I would just keep it as it is and move the price to 400. But again, I already know that won't fly, since the issue of this thread is not and never has been the ability of dual pack howitzers to wipe, but the fact that it can actually pressure axis off of prepared positions. No, it's always been about dual pak howitzers wiping anything static. Yes, that's sometimes 'prepared positions', but that's also (most of the time) LMG grens trying to hold off double-bar rifles, PAK43s, and MG42s - a static unit that is core to OSTs design. It's also been about it doing all that with zero user input. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment28 Jul 2019, 00:43 AM Jump back to quoted post28 Jul 2019, 00:34 AMMr.Flush The only thing that got banned was double okw and double brits They banned all 'double' setups: This is a mixed factions tournament for both Axis and Allies. For instance each Axis team must play OKW + Ostheer, and on the allied side any two of the three factions in necessary, That said, it will be interesting, although the same size will be quite small. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment28 Jul 2019, 00:26 AM Jump back to quoted post28 Jul 2019, 00:24 AMCODGUY Can't do that. It wouldn't fit in with the faction design of USF which is to get it's ass kicked by superior OKW and occasionally Ostheer firepower. Stats seem to show that USF is the strongest faction. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment28 Jul 2019, 00:12 AM Jump back to quoted post27 Jul 2019, 23:45 PMMazianni All infantry except for G43 equipped Ostheer infantry need to be still to fire, Ostheer is in fact the only faction that breaks this rule. Look at the stats, Volks, Grens and Cons are all tied for worst moving penalties; rifles and penals are significantly better. Then look at upgrades: BAR Rifles - Can Fire on the move Bren IS - Effectively zero 'ready aim' time, so they can stutter-step Cons w/ PPSH - SMG, fires on the move STG Volks - STG can fire on the mov Vs. Grens w/ LMG42 - Can't fire while moving, awful 'ready aim' time G43s (which I removed from my post, before yours), do give some decent 'on the move' power to Grens, but they're doctrinal. This also assumes the side facing the pack howitzer has absolutely no indirect fire or vehicles of his own whatsoever, and no team weapons that the pack howitzer should be firing at instead. Pak howitzer out-ranges mortars (2x the range on barrage), so they aren't a problem. Vehicles shouldn't be a problem, since we're at mid game; they're not rushing USF backlines that often, especially if your PAK is defended (mines, M36s, etc.) No one's going to build team weapons since two PAKs will insta-wipe (or retreat) them, so MG42s aren't an issue either. How would you even nerf this thing without making it totally superflous? Ive already outlined why I think you guys are full of shit, and the fact nobody can come up with some role for it other than what it does after so many threads on this topic is more indicative of a refusal to adapt strategy. Same way the OST Vet 3 Turbo mortar was nerfed - lower the auto-fire strength (i.e. ROF, accuracy). That's the entire issue. It's roll is being a long range IDF weapon; that's it. It's like a mortar, except with more range, WP barrage, and HEAT barrage. As for no input, most of the shit in this game takes no input. I dont get this line of criticism whatsoever. Its not like the pack howitzer is going to automatically spawn three rifle squads and an AT gun to defend itself. Its not like you have to tell an Ostwind to barrage infantry. The entire game is design around high amounts of micro. The ostwind you (sometimes) need to tell to manually target squads, you need to move it manually, etc. The PAK howitzer you put into a position... and then do nothing with. And then it erases OST units. Also defending a unit is not the same as micro'ing the unit. Jump back to quoted post27 Jul 2019, 23:49 PMSupremeStefan Givme rocket arty in cpt. tier and we gut This was suggested in the other thread, and moving the Calliope into cpt. might actually work well. It might need some adjustment though, and the M8A1 would likely also need adjustments, but it's a valid suggestion. Jump back to quoted post28 Jul 2019, 00:01 AMMr.Flush Oh, and a sniper in tier 1. I think snipers piss off static players just as much though :{ Then we'd need to give one to OKW as well. I'd be fine with this, too. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment27 Jul 2019, 23:39 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Jul 2019, 23:38 PMpvtgooner Literally just a move your p4 next to it and it’s dead. It’s good but top players don’t whine about it because it’s stupid easy to kill. That works in a vacuum, not a real game with M36s, ATGs, etc. Also that thread is full of 1v1 and 2v2 >300 players saying it should be adjusted. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment27 Jul 2019, 23:35 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Jul 2019, 23:32 PMMazianni God forbid that 700 fucking manpower worth of t3 indirect fire actually be able to kill infantry and team weapons that sit in place. It's not enough that the squad wear bullet magnet vests and decrew on losing two models, but the auto attack has to be rendered completely useless or removed so it can act like a really expensive barrage-only mortar that can't even retreat. Im sure you'd talk about buffing the barrage somehow to sound fair, but I'm also sure none of the people calling for this thing to be nerfed would want its damage or aoe to even approach the squad-wiping lefh, so this whole balance discussion just goes in fucking circles. Read my self-quoted post above; the problem is that the Pak Howitzer is incredibly powerful without user input (i.e. auto-fire). And it's not just against support weapons; the vast majority of OST infantry units need to stand still to be effective (LMG-grens, etc.). All a USF player needs to do is put a pak-howi in auto-fire range, ignore it, and focus on riflemen. The Axis player won't be able to do anything, since standing still isn't a choice (hit by PAK), moving isn't a choice (can't fire LMGs on the move), and relying on support weapons also isn't a choice (MG42 needs to stay still...). You can basically disrupt the entire design of OST's army with effectively ZERO user input. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pak Howitzer needs adjustment27 Jul 2019, 23:24 PM Oh, this again If it's coming up this often, it should probably be looked into. Jump back to quoted post2 Jul 2019, 00:30 AMDoomlord52 This keeps coming up, doesn't it? Again And again... It's always the same issue, and it's still the same since the last IDF unit rework/nerf patch. The core problem is that there are units which perform exceedingly well without user input. This doesn't fit in the design of the game; units which don't require input generally aren't that powerful (MG bunker, etc.) whereas units that require a lot of user input are generally quite powerful (sniper). This can of course be skewed by unit cost; a very expensive one can be powerful with less micro (elefant), but it's generally a correct power curve. These powerful, inexpensive AND low micro units are massively off the curve. Remember the Ost Vet 3 Turbo-Laser mortar? Everyone complained about it massively overperforming; and they were right, because it required zero player input to get results. It was rightfully nerfed, and now fits the 'power curve' well. Now we're just looking at the current outliers, which happen to the the M1 Pack and the M8A1 Scott. They're both incredibly effective units because they require next to no user input to get results; this needs to be changed. In: COH2 Balance