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It certainly needs an adjustment, especially in team games. Probably the two biggest "problem" tanks in 3v3/4v4 right now are the M36 and Churchill, followed by the panther. |
Allies will just naturally be a little better in team games because they have a whole extra faction. In that chart above you can see it clearly, random teams are on the left and arranged teams are on the right. With arranged teams that come into a game with a plan having more options is a natural advantage.
It's not really that bad, just don't take 4v4 so seriously. In the future this is avoided by Lelic not having an uneven number of factions.
While I somewhat agree with that, I don't think that can really explain the entire gap. The other charts showing win percentages by faction and side show that there is something really strange going on in the top 25% 4v4 RT (not just AT).
If it was entirely on having an extra faction, that gap should be somewhat consistent. A 5-8% win rate advantage is pretty big compared to the other modes, so it might be worthwhile look into allied scaling a bit more, since it seems to get a bit too powerful in team-games (3v3 has the same problem to a lesser degree).
note: two explanations for this could be that the average allied player is noticeably more skilled, or there are a noticeably higher number of axis players.
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Let's not powercreep riflemen even more; they're already amazing at medium range with double bars, and pretty solid at long with M1919s. They don't need to be amazing at close range with Thompsons as well.
If people want to be able to base their build around cavs, let's just move them to 0-points, but nerf them as well. Then give them an upgrade to bring them back to their current stats, similar to the AGren veteran squad leader.
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Really impressive data; this is great.
Pretty surprised about the 4v4 win-rates, though; that massive gap in the top 25% is pretty strange. |
As the result, their strategic role has become 'surprise unit': rush one out and roll over an opponent without their silver bullets handy.
I think that's somewhat the point, though. Heavy/SuperHeavy tanks are expensive, single units - they're supposed to be powerful. If your opponent is saving for them (200+ fuel), that means they're not building mediums, which leaves them pretty vulnerable.
- What sort of enemy army composition should they be good against?
- What should they be able to counter?
- What should counter them?
- When should they be available?
- Where do you think they should fit into the game?
I struggle to believe there's no option other than as shock units.
1. They should be very good against a specific 'type' of unit: either vehicles or infantry.
2. They should counter pretty much everything of that type.
3. They should be countered by moderate amounts of things NOT of that type (i.e. tanks vs. AI focused heavy).
4. Mid-game if rushed, late game otherwise.
5. Pretty much where they are now is fine, although I think the build time should go up a fair bit.
P4 counter all allied mediums in normal fight, they also easily can 1v1 all allied tank destroyers in direct combat. Panther simply does it better, hardly any point in P4 when you can field Panther from same tier.
The M36 is faster than the P4, more accurate on the move, and does more damage. Unless both are standing still, there's no way this is true - and unit comparisons in a vacuum (flat ground, no movement, no support) are somewhat pointless. |
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It's beatable, but you need somewhat coordinated teammates, and you need to lean heavily into "OP Meta" units/builds. Interestingly, I've found that the more OST players you have, the better; anything more than 1 OKW player drastically lowers your win chance, with 3x OKW being basically an instant loss (but maybe that's just me).
Since maps like Redball basically turn into 2x 2v2 (top and bottom 'lanes'), you'll want to coordinate with the other player in your lane. For docs, the new 'Strategic Reserves' AGren/Tiger Ace commander is a pretty good choice, and extremely effective when backed up by another player not using it; Jaeger Armor and Storm are usually my other 2 choices in 4v4. Let's call the SR-doc player 1 and JA/S doc player 2.
Player 1 should be getting Agrens, then PGrens, then T3 for an Ostwind or P4J - skipping T1/2 is important. Realistically, only one of those PGrens will need schrecks, since player 1 is going to do most of the AI work. Player 2 should do a fairly normal T1/2/3 build, since you'll need AT/Mortars; and they'll be covering most of the early AT with a PAK.
If player 2 is going JA-doc, try to not spend a ton of fuel, since an early elefant is always helpful. Note that player 2 should only pick storm if the allied players are playing defensively, or have a UKF-emplacement player. Additionally, always check the opponents docs in the loading screen, and make sure they don't have a ton of recon. The LeFH, the main reason for this doc in 4v4, is pointless if they do.
From there, it's just coordination. Player 2 needs to smoke MGs for player 1 and deal long-range DPS with their LMG-Grens. Player 1 needs to be constantly aggressive and force squads to retreat, while also keeping them away from Player 2's weapon crews. Also, make sure to mine your flanks, that break in the hedgerows on Redball is a pretty common one for top-right starting players.
Once Player 1 hits T3, rush out a P4J or ostwind (P4 if there's mediums, Ostwind if not) and use it in combination with your AI (and your teammates AT, if needed). Realistically, if rushed, the allied players shouldn't have any mediums or TDs for at least a minute or two (provided they have the same fuel income), so use that time to push forward. Again, player 2 should be playing "normally" and supporting with MGs, grens and AT.
Hopefully neither of you will lose many/any tanks, and will get out a TigerAce/Elefant quickly, at which point you should be able to take most of the map (~20 minutes in). |
F2P encourages more cheating, no? My only concern.
Could just make ranked play have a minimum level that takes a while to get to (5-10hrs?).
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This keeps coming up, doesn't it?
Again
It destroys moving units incredibly well...
The problem is, the pack howie basically hard-counters all of Ost's units with nearly zero user input. ...
And again...
It's always the same issue, and it's still the same since the last IDF unit rework/nerf patch. The core problem is that there are units which perform exceedingly well without user input. This doesn't fit in the design of the game; units which don't require input generally aren't that powerful (MG bunker, etc.) whereas units that require a lot of user input are generally quite powerful (sniper). This can of course be skewed by unit cost; a very expensive one can be powerful with less micro (elefant), but it's generally a correct power curve. These powerful, inexpensive AND low micro units are massively off the curve.
Remember the Ost Vet 3 Turbo-Laser mortar? Everyone complained about it massively overperforming; and they were right, because it required zero player input to get results. It was rightfully nerfed, and now fits the 'power curve' well.
Now we're just looking at the current outliers, which happen to the the M1 Pack and the M8A1 Scott. They're both incredibly effective units because they require next to no user input to get results; this needs to be changed. |
The only thing the strumtiger and AVRE needs, is to be able too shoot down a slight hill without the sheell landing massivly short
Just in general, they both need to be reworked so they actually hit within the target circle on terrain that isn't perfectly flat. if that means changing the projectile arc to be unbelievably high, so be it. |
What if you removing firing through blockers entirely, but increased their range to 120? (+50%)
It'd then be about giving them the biggest sight lines possible rather than literally building them behind houses.
Their brittleness also wouldn't matter as much with ranges like that. You could make them both decrewable no-brace units like the Pak 43 is now.
120 range would mean locking down 'lane' maps like Redball entirely, and from ranges that even mortars/ISGs couldn't hit. |
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