another option to consider is give them a cloaking mechanism like Storms in COH1 had. They can infiltrate IF they don't run into wire, mines, get too close to something, avoid scouting units or units on guard, etc.
I know it won't happen because this implies Axis actually having to do some micro... But one can still have dreams Relic will learn to balance. |
I agree it is hard for us casual gamers right now ... Kubels are tough, you need to be ready, retreat bug on maxim is frustrating ... but then I watch a higher skilled streamer use just engineers and defensive tactics ... no call in tanks and win.
I see that and I think .. yes the game is tougher for me now but if I keep at it I can lift my game play and start winning. Think outside the box ... I'm still in the box
Part of the problem in allies/axis balance is that axis doesn't have to think outside the box. And when the US does, and finds some strength they can use or weakness they can exploit the axis fanbois shout to mommy that it should be hit with the nerf bat (goodbye assault engineers, hello Kubel).
It is like the crying about the ISU-152. Is it OP? Quite possibly. But fix it and the only SOviet doctrines you will see will have IS-2s because you just have limited ways to counter the axis. |
To better illustrate what I mean I am copying here something I wrote up in another thread:
If an OKW super tank needs to be repaired it retreats and you click a unit to repair it. You can shift click the repairing unit to repair something else, to do something else, to move somewhere else. A few clicks and you can move to some other part of the screen. When you come back your vehicle is repaired and waiting for order and in the meantime can defend itself with its super armor and the repairers are off on their next tasks. If you see the repairing unit is being attacked you click it somewhere else and it goes with the repairers following.
Now compare that to the USF vehicles. You need more of them to attack, which means each vehicle has to be pathed by you taking into account dangers for each. Then you retreat them (hopefully all survive). You can't de-crew until they get to the destination and can't repair until the de-crew is complete. You have two extra commands that each have a minimum of time (de-crew and crew) that have to wait for the vehicle to be in position and can't be stacked in addition to the orders to retreat and repair. (What!? I just lost another squad while trying to repair these three glass cannons?! F-ing "different" faction design!)
During this time, the crew and its veterancy is now exposed to fire and to GTFO they have to jump back in and only then can you retreat them.
And you have to do all of this extra micro to more units than the axis does. That is as bad in 1v1 for a player as it is in 4v4 where it just gets compounded over 4 probably more casual players.
And remember, additional micro is not a matter of arithmetic or geometric increases in difficulty but an exponential progression. Every person can handle only so many APMs (actions per minute). Every action you add to a task reduces their apms available for something else. If US vehicles already have more micro requirements than axis (and they do since they are both more fragile and you have to use more of them) then adding a "balancing" mechanic with EVEN MORE actions gives the veneer of balance, but in the hands of the average player they are just plain harder to use, easier to lose, and require more work. |
Another example of balance and game design going wrong is the USF vehicle repair mechanic. Supposedly it was there to counter the weaker armor and HP of US units, which is interesting and different. But it in fact makes US vehicles HARDER to use except on the very highest of skill levels.
If an OKW super tank needs to be repaired it retreats and you click a unit to repair it. You can shift click the repairing unit to repair something else, to do something else, to move somewhere else. A few clicks and you can move to some other part of the screen. When you come back your vehicle is repaired and waiting for order and in the meantime can defend itself with its super armor and the repairers are off on their next tasks. If you see the repairing unit is being attacked you click it somewhere else and it goes with the repairers following.
Now compare that to the USF vehicles. You need more of them to attack, which means each vehicle has to be pathed by you taking into account dangers for each. Then you retreat them (hopefully all survive). You can't de-crew until they get to the destination and can't repair until the de-crew is complete. You have two extra commands that each have a minimum of time (de-crew and crew) and can't be stacked, and have to wait until units are in position, in addition to the orders to retreat and repair. (What!? I just lost another squad while trying to repair these three glass cannons?! F-ing "different" faction design!)
During this time, the crew and its veterancy is now exposed to fire and to GTFO they have to jump back in and only then can you retreat them.
And you have to do all of this extra micro to more units than the axis does. That is as bad in 1v1 for a player as it is in 4v4, it just gets compounded.
And remember, additional micro is not a matter of arithmetic or geometric increases in difficulty but an exponential progression. Every person can handle only so many APMs (actions per minute). Every action you add to a task reduces the apms available. If US vehicles already have more micro requirements than axis (and they do since they are both more fragile and you have to use more of them) then adding a "balancing" mechanic with EVEN MORE actions gives the veneer of balance. In the hands of the average player they are just plain harder to use, easier to lose, and require more work. |
The problem with 4v4 is not that you can't balance it. Or that balancing it would ruin 1v1. It is that 1v1 isn't very balanced. And due to the lack of any effort to take 3v3 and 4v4 into account any of those imbalances are magnified in 3v3s and 4v4s.
The problem is that they want difference for differences sake. To an outside observer each faction looks completely different. And they are. Too much so. To an outside observer of COH1 the US and Wehr looked almost exactly the same until you took into account the doctrines. And yet, if you never used a doctrine for either, they still behaved and felt completely different. Sure there were imbalances and those were magnified over 3v3 and 4v4, but they were small enough that what map you played and relative skill mattered more. It is only now, with COH2 as an example of how things can get messed up for the sake of a design IDEA, that we see the elegance and brilliance of COH1s design.
(This is coming from someone who still thinks there are major disparities in the COH1 US/Wehr design that favor Wehr in all but the highest levels of play. But after playing COH2 I can forgive all of that in COH1.) |
If you actually wanted to IMPROVE the game like you stated, you should always test playing all factions / sides. You need to know what's OP and exactly why and you only get that by using it and having it used against you. With that you could've gone to the forums and made a thread with proof, as in replays and such.
He might have raged... but the above quote shows a bit of what is wrong with this discussion. People don't have to show what is wrong. They don't have to prove one unit is OP or another is underperforming. They only have to know that they are dissatisfied with the game.
Most of us aren't developers. We play to have fun (whether that means on a competitive level or not). I stayed in hopes that the ideal for the game was more of the imperfect balance of COH1 where you had a hope of being competitive in all modes and on most maps. That just isn't the case with COH2 and the fan discussion here tells me that what I want doesn't matter to them and shouldn't matter to me. Except you don't get to decide that. Only I do.
Maybe one day they will fix the issues with playing allies. I will probably stay on the forums to see if that happens. But I am just not drawn to playing the game anymore, and with it being deleted it will be time prohibitive (full download) to join my friends if they ever invite me. That is unlikely. I have noticed most now play COH1 more than COH2. |
Why all the hate for those who are dissatisfied??
If you think there is nothing wrong with the game then the problem is probably with those of us deleting the game. You should be saying goodbye and good riddance.
But a players perceptions are 100% of their truth.
You think it is foolish of us to unsub because the game isn't balanced (or even close) in 4v4 or 3v3? You don't get to make that choice. And clearly you have failed to convince those who are that they are wrong... that they should play... or that they should stick around for something.
You can even have it your way and I can admit you are right. The game is perfectly balanced. It is the greatest and most fun RTS to ever created and ever TO BE created. There is nothing to fix and no subsequent patch will ever lead to a more perfect game than we have right now.... But doesn't change that I am not having fun. The direction is, for me, the wrong one, and I don't seem to be alone.
(sheesh, the vehemence of the push back now that people are leaving is pretty astounding.)
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Game deleted from one computer. Tonight it gets deleted from the other.
I don't find it fun to even hope anymore. The design is broken. The developers ideas of balance are broken. The idea of difference for difference's sake is blinding them to making this fun.
Ever play a game as a kid where the other person had to play a character they didn't want in order for the game to be played? Well that is what happens now with Allies vs. Axis. Someone has to play the unfun side in order for there to be a game. That is not good game design.
I think every penny I spent on COH1 and versions was super well spent. I also bought COH2 and USF and regret spending the $$ on them. |
I guess I wass wrong.
There are no problems with the game currently.
People are flocking to play all game modes and with all factions. MVgame. |
One of the arguments for the current balance is that USF vehicles are in a fine place because their "medium" (vulnerable) status is balanced by the ability for the crew to repair. Thinking about that mechanic I realize it is possible this is true but at a substantially higher skill level than is actually implied by obvious vulnerability of the unit.
The vehicles, like many of the Soviet tanks, can be balanced in the very best of hands because they are still effective if microed well. Leave aside argument that this doesn't address the imbalance most less-than-great-micro players will feel in the units, the crew-repair mechanic actually exacerbates the problem.
We know the vehicles have to be microed well. We know that they have less pop allowing for more of them as a balance. But each added vehicle creates exponential increases in micro (it becomes harder and harder to squeeze APMs into each available second) and practice. But now one of the "balance" ideas given to compensate for the vehicle weakness is a mechanic that requires.... even more micro. It is further a weakness because you have to expose your crews while doing it.
This is great for those who can handle it but for the rest of us it is a mechanic that is actually exacerbating our problem which is that we already have to do more micro and more combined arms than the super troops and super tanks on the other side.
Why shouldn't the US get a repair facility/truck instead? The balance aspect is the same (repairThat is much closer to the actual US armor strength in WWII. The US excelled at damaged vehicle recovery and repair. Something that actually wasn't the case for the Axis.
I know this is a fantasy. Relic has a fetish for things as they are. But the stats and player choices says something different. |