the thing is that they are there and intended to take the torch. if obers did not exist volks would absolutley need tuned up *they already do, but more so and for different reasons)
This is fair. My only problem with the Volk -> Ober pipeline is that it basically requires that you lose Volk squads at some point in the game. This is USUALLY what happens, but dependent on how you play/the enemy composition, this doesn't always happen. I still think that armies should get "transfer orders" as standard, because there are some situations where you are genuinely expected to have lost units to continue building your army, and that doesnt really gel with the game's design.
It does... sort of feel like Volks need "something", but the strength of Obersoldaten means the balance team almost can't afford to GIVE them anything. OKW's "unique" design of nondoc elite infantry is one of those design decisions that arguably makes their balancing rather tricky.
I'm still of the opinion that SOV (And really every army) ought to have a stock elite infantry option of some sort, guards being stock would go towards helping smooth them out as a faction.
no, obers are not on the field. but sturms are, and potentially FULLY kitted volks. volks peak sooner and fall off later. other units were always supposed to outperform them. volks were to be chaff while the 2 stock elite infantry units okw has do the heavy lifting in conjunction with their multitude of armour
By this point in the game you'll have your fully kitted Cons, too, if we're talking specifically about SVTs. The SOV vs OKW matchup is otherwise fine, Conscripts/Engineers outnumber the OKW troops, and have better mobility, but early on OKW benefit from Volks' slightly better performance, and Sturmpioneers acting as a strong tiebreaker... though SVTs cause this to break down a little. Sturms do great damage, but they're not exactly a high-durability squad, and they cost a lot to reinforce (Or worse, replace). Sturms can be focused down quite well dependent on the game... in 1v1s this isnt so much an issue due to how squads spread around the map, but in 2v2 and up Sturms lose a bit of their bite. You'd be surprised at how easily they die when two or more squads turn their attention to them. SOV also get the benefit of the extremely potent CE flamethrower/merge combination, which is fantastic against OKW. (Plus Clown Cars, though this is basically hardcountered by Breakthrough and GOD.)
As I say, the generic OKW/SOV matchup is relatively fine, with both factions having strengths and weaknesses, and ebbs and flow, but the SVT upgrade in particular feels like it treads on some toes.
they dont, though they do have pretty early pgrens *see above about timing and how that imnpactys performanmce) as well as the single best method to control enemy infanty in the game availible as their very 2nd unit without so much as a tech cost associated. they dont have stock obers, they have alternatives though
I agree, though Pgrens are certainly not quite so strong as Obersoldaten. The MG42 I'll certainly give you, though SOV has plenty of tools to let them deal with the MG42. Really, the only factions that don't start with reasonable MG counters are OKW and UKF, with the latter never really gaining one.
thisn onmmly holds water if they are actually optional. grenades i would call such, weapon upgrades... no. the game has evolved so that weapon upgrades are integral to unit performance. the jump in DPS, the concentrated DPS, which also reduces the impact of losing models, increased vet gain through the aforementioned DPS output and most importantly, the way almost every single weapon upgrade improves the units ability to attack on the move so as to reduce the need for positioning. it has become so integral that the few units that did not have them have received some sort of alternative (cons and penals), those without dramatically fall off - hell, obers got buffed by being delayed, because their weapon upgrade comes sooner now. thats how core weapon upgrades have become. allied factions have the flexibility of timing, but not neglecting weapon upgrades- not if they plan on being competitive
I'm not saying they can neglect weapon upgrades, I'm saying that the fact they're a separate tech to the "main" tech means that, as you say yourself, they're more flexible in their timing than Axis upgrades, which require that you go down the "main" tech path to access. This lets Allied factions choose between getting quicker vehicles/other techs, and boosting their infantry to their full potential sooner. Bolster is a stupid tech that has no reason to exist, as an aside.
Something could be argued about the cost of some of these side-techs being too high (Molotovs + AT grenades being combined into a single, cheaper tech was a good move), but I really don't agree that they're part of the Unit cost.
It's also worth stating that Allied upgrades (Barring the MG34 of the Obers, and dependent on how you look at it, Pgren Shrecks) are stronger than Axis ones. A single BAR is nearly as good as both of a Volk squad's STG44s, and double-barred rifles blow Volks out of the water. The same is true of the Bren versus the LMG42. This is justifiable, of course, due to the extra investment of muni you make into your Rifles or Sections. Bazookas and Piats are their own separate topic, I won't pretend that Rifles and Sections being able to upgrade to either of those is a benefit, as there's scarcely ever a reason to do so.
However: I thought the general "meta" for UKF kind of was to neglect Brens most of the time, or has this changed?
why are they not? some factions may lean harder on muni than others, but the impact is no different than fuel. one does not expect a t34 to outslug an okw p4 anymore than one would expect a 45mu+240mp con to out fight a 260mp+60 mu volk (in the case of svt cons vs volks, the higher costed unit should be outperforming, this is why svt cons needed changes) slightly more cost efficient in this or that is one thing, but saying they are completely incomparable is another and leaves no possibility for balance
They're not totally incomparable, but stating that a 60 Muni upgrade for one faction is equal in cost to a 60 muni upgrade for another isnt taking into account the various factions' muni economies, nor is it necessarily taking into account the MP investment, or the squad it's affecting, which is what I'm saying. We're agreeing here, I think I just wasn't clear enough.
All I'm pointing out is that 60 munitions for one faction isnt as "expensive" as 60 munitions for another, It's a strange thing to state, I know, but I do hope you understand what I'm getting at.
they offer an alternative. penals scale towards offense and brute force while cons scale towards outlasting their enemy they are different philosophies if you will (which i find to be a good balance in keeping both units viable). cons are less strong early on, penals are less strong later once vet takes hold. penals fight aggressively early on and cons take a support role, late game the roles switch. both units have a place, but penals are not elite infantry to cons any more than panzer fusiliers are to volks. they are just different philosophies.
I think talking about Penals as a "Semi-elite" or "Alternative infantry" is a more semantic argument than anything else. Soviet tech structure, and their arguably slightly overpriced nature holds Penals back more than their actual performance.
compare penals to actual elite infantry and you will be left wanting. not to say that penals are not gooed, but they are front loaded heavily (although the ptrs upgrade is quite good now) and not in scaling.
I'm still inclined to disagree on the idea that Penals don't scale, my own testing with the unit finds that their accuracy bonuses make them still very potent damage dealers lategame, their issue has always been their lack of survivability, and their cost (Particularly in terms of bleed). I haven't had chance to test their new veterancy + their new bonus from Mobilise Reserves, I'm a little concerned that the moving of accuracy to RA isnt going to make THAT much of a difference to them, I might have liked to see them gain the RA bonus on top of their old Accuracy bonus, rather than making a tradeoff... though I'll have to see how they perform now.
The PTRS upgrade, I agree, seems very potent now. It was always great against lights, but it seems like they might threaten mediums and up now, while avoiding losing quite so much of their AI as they have in the past.
When I do play SOV, I've found that Penals do quite a nice job, though this is generally in a 2v2 context, their strengths and weaknesses are rather different in a 1v1.