It should be theoretically possible to balance heavy timing with both CP and fuel cost (e.g. with an extra tech).1v1 is limited by fuel, large modes by CP. So if we set both to the point where in 1v1 the players usually have the CP but still need to wait a little to get the fuel, while large modes have it the other way around. That could balance it around a 2-3 minute window for every mode, which would probably be fine. |
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3-4 Shrek shots are enough to take down a Jackson. The problem is that the games I play are a blob shitshow from both sides. Enemy brings armor, I respond with Jacksons, he then brings AT equipped squads and I fall back while holding him with my infantry. Still not enough to stop them sometimes.
Schrecks do 120 damage, meaning it takes 6 Schrecks (or 5 plus snare) to take down a Jackson. This means 3 Panzergren squads fully equipped with Panzerschrecks and all need to hit. Usually you can drive away before they reload. But as I said, if a unit that should be used at range 60 will get overrun by a blob of slower units that have range ~30, you made a mistake. You left an important flank unguarded so they sneaked their units through and took you by surprise or you did not micro well enough and retreated your unit too late. This does not mean that the unit is bad, just that it does not fit your play style or skill level (don't get me wrong, I don't want to shit talk you, but some situations require heavier micro and obviously only frequent players can mitigate damage).
Yeah, the Jackson is fast, but if you have 1-2 and the enemy rushes you with 2-3 P4s and is focused on taking them down, he won't back down until he destroys the Jacksons. Plus, if you find it difficult to destroy a Jackson with a P4, you have alternatives. And if you don't, then use P4s and go up close and personal. If you can't take it down from far away, get close. Jackson is nothing more than a sniper. Good from afar, mediocre if you get close. This is how I see it.
To be honest I really think you have a problem with tank positioning or flank guarding. Jacksons get the first salvo and should make at least one tank snarable to take him out of the fight. With good micro and a bit of good RNG you can snare two vehicles early in the scenario described above. There should be Riflemen in front of your Jacksons to scout and snare if something like this happens. As every TD, the Jackson is indeed a sniper, but it should win a 1v1 if another unit provides the sight range for a long range shot. If you see you get rushed, you should immediately pull back your Jacksons and get Riflemen close for snaring.
And a solution would be to make the M10 Wolverine non doctrinal. Seriously, I wouldn't mind having it as a stock unit instead of the Jackson. It costs nothing, you can spam it and it's seriously perfect in every aspect. You don't even have to change it. Spam it, roll over the enemy, replace casualties. What's 80 fuel lost?
But then USF would have nothing to defend against heavy tanks. The M10 does not pen reliably. I don't have the pen values atm, but I think it even has some trouble against an OKW P4 (this is just gut feeling from the very few times I've used it, if someone can provide the numbers that would be great). |
Why? if you decide to not go molotov or atnade, that's a drawback you're assuming to take
If you go for Conscripts that is true, but SOV have two viable playstyles. If you go for a T1 build, you do not need molotovs and an AT package. |
Yes, Ost and Soviets would need an additional side-tech in their T4 building that allows them to call in a heavy tank. For Soviets it would cost around 50 fuel. Not sure what the numbers are for Ost, I guess something relatively similar.
Well just counting fuel OST and SOV should both pay 45 fuel. But this also only works if SOV is forced to get molotovs and AT grenades, otherwise it should be more expensive. |
Then increase the price of the heavies for sov and ost a bit but still keep the total cost less the wfa and ukf.
This would make the cost performance of their tanks worse than others. So if you want to replace your heavy, you would be punished more than other factions for losing the tank.
If you're fine with delaying heavy tanks for SOV and OST, why not just introduce an additional tech to gate them off? |
Both ost and sov dont get extras with tech. No free units, forward retreat points, non doc superheavy or base arty pieces.
So i personaly dont see why they should pay the same to be able to go get a heavy.
While I partially agree, your argument is way to simplified, but sometimes also wrong.
UKF base arty behaves like an offmap ability, not like a unit. The USF FRP costs constant POP and thereby MP income (although relatively less), both factions get a complete rooster of units already while teching up, but also lack no important role in the late game (UKF lacks mortar, UKF rocket arty, OKW a cheap and durable AI vehicle as some examples). SOV and OST medics don't cost fuel if you just look at fuel economy.
If we just count the tech structures, SOV and UKF slightly underpay, OKW slightly overpays. But then OST and OKW DO get "free stuff" for teching. Snares, grenades, weapon improvements. All the nice stuff that often is gated behind side techs for Allies (depending on the faction obviously). Not to say that the weapon rack unlock is identical to Grens being able to get LMGs (the racks are better and should cost more), but since you apparently oppose the fact that we should compare full techs, many factions would lack some vital parts.
The other point that Lago already mentioned is that heavies should be balanced against each other just like mediums. Giving some factions earlier access to heavies than others just creates more issues and solves none. |
I think both SOV and OST should need to pay extra for a heavy.
Corrent me if I'm wrong, but they both need to gain 205 fuel if I calculated correctly, while all other factions need to gain about 250 for full tech (including all side techs, medic etc)
EDIT: Just realized this is phrased ambiguously: What I mean is that SOV and OST should have an additional tech to unlock heavies as a call in, not to make the tanks themselves more expensive. |
In all the games and hours I have spent in this game, I have never seen Jacksons bouncing P4 shots. On the other hand, vehicles below P4 are normal to bounce on the Jackson because there is a term called "caliber". Small caliber weapons have difficult time penetrating thick or angled surfaces. Should I continue explaining the concept or I will read on the next reply that a 9mm is capable of penetrating the armor of a M109?
Jackson gets shot and deleted in a tank rush, or just an infantry (equipped with shreks) rush and all shots penetrate it because it doesn't have armor.
This is a case of observer bias. Jackson has about 15% chance to bounce a max range shot of a P4. Not sure what you want with the caliber of weapons here though. The game works completely differently and is far from realistic.
Also the Jackson should not get touched by Panzerschrecks unless you really misjudged the situation, get caught by surprise during a push of yours (but then there is normally no follow up for the Axis player). The Jackson has 60 range, Schrecks have (don't know exactly) 30/35 (someone please confirm) and need a bit of setup time. If your backline unit gets into knife range with Panzerschrecks that it deserves to be punished. Also in a tank rush it can still drive away unless you're overmicroed heavily or positioned it in front of a path blocker. It does not get deleted much quicker than a similarly prices OKW P4 vs an Allied composition.
The Jackson has no drawback apart from a slightly underwhelming armor for the price. The only reason why it's strong is that it has to be that way due to the design of the whole USF faction. Every other unit in the game has a weakness, either be it a strong counter or a clearly underperforming stat or feature (like casemates) that can be exploited. A Jackson however is usually lost by either the USF player making a mistake or being heavily outplayed which would probably kill every other tank in the game as well. |
Are you sure about those numbers?
I always though that snares do 80 damage with 100% pen chance across the board except of the satchel. But I've never put much thought into it.
Can you really snare a T70 to death with 4 Fausts? |
Guards and shocks aren't ambush units. Ppsh penals are dictionary definition of glass cannons and can't stealth. Falls have half their potency locked behind tech and starting DPS while good is already much lower then 60+.
10%+ is a massive buff, regardless which stat you talk about here.
That misses the point. The question is if Storms are balanced according to their timing, role and price. If they are UP, a buff does not require another stat to be nerfed.
However I agree that Zero's comparisons to non infiltration units are bad and counterproductive. |