Heavies should not be able to come as a first tank.

I know the new changes are definitely a step in this direction, and I haven't had a chance to play the mod yet , so I don't know if this is a solved and gone issue or whatever, but I just wanted to briefly discuss the rationale behind the title statement.

Heavies currently are meta because they're super powerful, good at killing everything, and are fairly easy to use compared to other armor due to the high health. That's all fine to a degree (what degree is a discussion for another thread), but what's not fine is that people (myself included lul) regularly build heavies as their first or second tank now. This is an issue because they are much too powerful to be coming at such an early timing when the opponent doesn't really have a large enough army (usually) to defend against them and they just kind of steamroll. Currently they have the same sort of shock value an extremely early Luchs or T70 has but on steroids since they counter everything except massed TDs (which, if it's an even game, shouldn't exist yet, especially if the person without the heavy is ostheer). Heavies should not be shock units, they should be the capstone on a more or less completed army, one of the last units you build IMO.

Either make them 300 fuel each, or nerf their performance vs infantry.

The current heavies are to medium vehicles what medium vehicles are to light vehicles. Imagine putting a Panzer IV in OKW Mechanized, and you've got the current situation with heavies in the medium tier.

There are two solutions. The first is to delay heavies until about CP13 so medium armour has time to accumulate. That dilutes their impact substantially: they become simply a good unit rather than a game-dominating shock vehicle.

The second is to increase the cost of going for a heavy over a medium to the point where it ceases to be a more effective strategy. That involves either adding a teching barrier or increasing the cost of the heavy tank directly.

The current heavies are to medium vehicles what medium vehicles are to light vehicles. Imagine putting a Panzer IV in OKW Mechanized, and you've got the current situation with heavies in the medium tier.

There are two solutions. The first is to delay heavies until about CP13 so medium armour has time to accumulate. That dilutes their impact substantially: they become simply a good unit rather than a game-dominating shock vehicle.

The second is to increase the cost of going for a heavy over a medium to the point where it ceases to be a more effective strategy. That involves either adding a teching barrier or increasing the cost of the heavy tank directly.

+1

That's basically the issue.

Delaying to 13cp would probably be a decent solution, and that's what it was before: locked behind high cp so they didn't come super early. The one downside to that is the change would inordinately affect teamgames, since cps accumulate slower on average in teamgames.

I kinda like a cost increase option, that way it'd make it much harder to get a heavy as the first tank, both timing and price wise, and it would be a larger resource investment to lose.

The problem with putting heavies at CP13 is the disparity between CP gain across gamemodes. CP13 works great for 1v1, but in larger modes it comes so late that there are multiple veteran tank destroyers on the field.

Said veteran TDs melt vet 0 heavies with their penetration buffs, which is why heavies got bumped down to CP9 in the first place.

What heavies really need is timing control independent of CPs: an AEC-style sidetech or something.

That, or slap that cost directly on the heavy itself like Stormjager said.

since cps accumulate slower on average in teamgames

No, they don't.
Team games have massive inflation, because there is 10 fuel caches on the field before there is 5 combat squads across both teams.

No, they don't.
Team games have massive inflation, because there is 10 fuel caches on the field before there is 5 combat squads across both teams.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/61229/resource-income-per-game-mode/page/1#post_id609470

https://www.coh2.org/topic/61229/resource-income-per-game-mode/page/1#post_id609470

Well, that was interesting read.

I think 13CP would be perfect 1v1 timing. The tanks have been buffed a lot since they had that requirement.

I've suggested before that large games get a CP multiplier, but that is either impossible or very difficult with the mod tools. I haven't put enough time in on that to be sure.

But... what if caches gave some CP, like building base structures?

You still wouldn't build them in 1v1s, but the bonus would be more and more noticeable as game size increased. I'll update this with a recommended xp number.

I'd try 100 action points when built, plus 20 per minute. Every member of the team benefits.

Yeah, the only way heavies could stay at the CP Value they are in the Winter Balance Preview would be if they are all restricted behind tech but each faction has different teching costs so it would be difficult to balance them so they all come around the same time period. I think Ghost's solution could actually work moderately well and would encourage people to use caches in 3's and 4's to help their teammates out. Maybe each cache provides like 1/2 CP for the player that builds it or something.

It should be theoretically possible to balance heavy timing with both CP and fuel cost (e.g. with an extra tech).1v1 is limited by fuel, large modes by CP. So if we set both to the point where in 1v1 the players usually have the CP but still need to wait a little to get the fuel, while large modes have it the other way around. That could balance it around a 2-3 minute window for every mode, which would probably be fine.

Imo one could try the following:
1) Add an extra tech for super heavies (and maybe all doctrinal units) to help adjust cost and timing.

2) reduce their all around performance creating certain areas that they perform inferior:
For instance:
Tiger could have relatively good mobility, good performance vs hard targets, lower vs soft targets
IS-2 could be very durable, good performance vs soft targets, lower vs hard targets.

and so on.