Me : Hint, don't close de distance. Aka with your LV.
This is EXACTLY what I stated. I'll make it clear one last time: Only against single Schreck squads you can close in with low risk, because they lack both high alpha damage and a snare.
The only double standard here is you believing Zook have more range than shreck.
That one is made up again, I never said that. Point out where I made that argument.
LVs have 5 more range, keep your LV moving at max range and neither zook, ptrs, piat or shreck will be able to fire a salvo. It requires skill to do so? Yes and I'm not the best skilled player on that matter but I understand that it is the way things are balanced between them.
OKW is not the best faction equiped around handled AT, yes that's true but guess what they are the best equiped with light vehicles, the Puma own every LV and the Luch doesn't give a shit about small arms damage. Not seing the balance here is a problem of you, not the game.
Point 1 is also exactly what I said, don't try to make it look different. Matter of fact is that everyone, even top level players, eat bazookas and Schrecks because 5 meters is a distance that is easy to bridge for at least one volley.
To point 2:
Yes, OKW has the best LVs in the game. But since you always argue with faction design: What about T1? Keep it unviable forever? If OKW goes T2 they have decrnt AT options, if not they are stuck with their ATG only and a single Schreck that is pretty much useless and - as I already stated - makes your Sturmpionier helpless in 1v1 situations. |
Then after L2P, L2R? Hope you make more effort as Moderator than poster. I said "don't close the distance" with your LV if you're afraid of any kind of handle AT because AI LVs have more range. That goes the same way for everyone, every faction. You see LVs aren't counter by zook, ptrs, piat or shreck but those punish mistakes and that is how the balance works, and pretty well here.
For the rest, we simply disagree on how to balance factions. I stop here.
That was a discussion point you completely made up.
Quick recap of the discussion on that regard:
Me: My Schreck squad can get pushed around by a T70 because they can not snare nor do enough damage.
You: Then don't close in with your LV.
Not too sure what's going on here.
Anyways:
Range difference between handheld AT and Luchs/T70 and the like is if I recall correctly 5 meters. That is often what your LV needs to stop, so it puts heavier micro tax on your unit to pull it back and constantly keep driving backwards in that 5 m zone.
Those units make a LV often ineffective and hard to use in the area around them while winning in a direct fight. If PTRS don't counter LVs, why do people usually get them if a Luchs, Puma or 222 come out? Because even a slight mis-micro from your opponent will send the damaged LV back to base and make it cost ineffective. That's a counter.
PS:
I'm not going to comment anything on your insults, but you should let go of these. |
No, you're inventing the argumentation here. Zook can't outrun LVs as much as Shreck. The rest is just your babling for the sake of it.
That was your argument only, mate. I did not bring up any of it by myself.
Have other factions easier way with handled AT, that's call asymmetrical design, OKW has its own strength around it.
The upgrade is currently in the game. At the moment we could either delete it or make it usable. I say make it usable. OKW can work without the upgrade, but as a tendency this would push you into T2 for the possibility to build a Puma if necessary. A functioning light Schreck squad could help T1 builds instead so that you have an AT option outside of the ATG that could at least deter a LV.
If we go back to the aim of your topic, SP doesn't need Elite shreck because first of all, the faction isn't designed around them having performing handle AT except from doctrines.
That is the case for every doctrinal unit. No faction is designed around or relies on a doctrinal unit to be viable. But at least we can agree on that. That does not add anything to the topic though. |
Because zook can outrun a Luch? Do you like so much running in circle behind your tail? Because that is what you are doing right now.
Honestly I'm not sure what you're arguing about right now.
But if you say that Bazookas are usually on Riflemen which often have a snare by the time the Luchs comes out (plus you can put two on them for a damage of 160) is the same as Panzerschrecks on Sturmpioniere which never get a snare, then a discussion won't help much. |
it works becouse a) 2 bazookas have good dps vs light vehicles and b) ptrs units have some sort of snare (or button vehicle)
maybe single schreck upgrate should also come with some sort of snare, as an alternative solution to this problem
I agree, but the point I wanted to make is that Guarda and Penals can sustain quite a bit of fire from the Luchs until it is heavily damaged. So it's usually not a good trade for the OKW player to go 1v1 vs such a squad. With 4 man squads you have a decent chance to get your models dropped too quivkly before your T70 (in that case) has to back off.
Hint for you, don't close the distance.
Because my Sturmpioniere can outrun a T70?
|
And what don't you understand from it being as per design?
Single shreck SP was never wanted but given to please the crowd. Its role is -AT Stop Gap-, not to counter LVs and even less AI LVs. You don't upgrade them because you want it but because you have no other solution. People who upgrade them for any other reason are 1- experimenting 2- wrong.
Btw you also don't counter AI LVs with zooks, even elite one.
But at least Sturmpioniere do not even fulfil their 'stop gap' function well.
And yes, you can counter a Luchs with bazookas. Just like you can counter it with PTRS Penals. Which works because they are 6 men and the Luchs can't close in to push them around. Unlike Schreck squads though. |
SPshreck are situational, they weren't even wanted by Relic when they redo OKW. If I recall correctly they where given because the community asked for it. They aren't there to deal damage but to stop LV push if you can't afford a proper vehicle to do it.
I don't understand why you want to make them deal more damage since they already fulfill their intended "STOP AT GAP" role. Or you want to change their role but I don't see any reason why, if you want a more offensive AT solution, the Puma is there for you.
I mean, their role when you equip them with shreck is the same as Penal with PTRS. Should we increase PTRS penal because they have little use atm? Of course not. You get them if you fail early on and can't get a vehicle soon enough and really need something to keep your opponent own vehicle at distance. Nothing less and nothing more.
BTW, I can already foreseen the problem you'll create with the combo Luch + elite pshreck and potential faust or raketen close by.
Elite Zooks require Elite troops to handle them, someone said that we could give them to officers and for the same reason as above I'm not approving it. I don't want to see stock elite zook + any USF light vehicle every games. At the moment if there are any on the field it is because certain doctrines have been selected and that what make them balanced.
What do Relics intentions from whenever that have been reworked multiple times have to do with how we should balance currently underused units?
I disagree on the part that they fulfil their role properly. Against an Clowncar, M5 or AEC they can, but not against AI LVs. Sturms AI DPS drops off quite a bit so you can't let them run arouns the battlefield alone anymore because basically every other unit will win against them. Also they will lose to a normal LV because they can be pushed around and prevented from shooting. You can't do that to PTRS Penals, Riflemen or RE. Panzergrens have the advantage that their damage is so high that a slight screw up costs you your LV. Single Schrecks don't have high damage and have to do damage over time to be effective, yet all of them are 4 men squads and relatively squishy. So you always have to run around in squads of two (mostly speaking for Sturmpioniere here).
To your last two points:
Using combined arms is actually exactly what this game is about. So if the unit gets used like that it would be a huge plus for my idea.
Please tell me in which way at least Sturm troopers do not qualify as elite units in the sense of the game? But apart from that the argument is not very strong. Every unit should be balanced according to its power level and potential shock value. The single Schreck upgrade currently has mo shock value and mediocre at best power level. Quite contrary, the unit on its own becomes weak to both its counter (which is good) as well as the unit that it is supposed to counter. And constantly needing to blob 2-3 units together during the early-mid game transition is not beneficial to the flow of the game. |
First of all I am really wondering if I am the only person who has ever played against Panzershrek Stormtroopers. I for one find them annoying enough already, even if they're off-meta. Sturmpio shreks are rarer, sure, but I'd be willing to bet they still show up. Also, Tank hunter partisans were included in this list, and do possess a snare. I'm against giving them an 'elite shrek' too.
Apparently yes. The majority of people here agreed that they rarely see single Schrevk squads and that it's not worth getting them. Yesterday I saw one guy getting a sungle Schreck Sturmpio in a Twitch game in 4v4. But judging from the snares that the Axis players could have done but did not, I assume that it wasn't a high level game. On the other hand the OST player in the same game blobbed 3 Panzergren Schrevk squads.
Both the Bazooka and the Panzershrek can and do hit infantry units; they are however prevented by dealing anywhere near lethal damage because most infantry AT damage is now done via a requirement action in a penetration effect. I forget the numbers but I think the PTRS does like 20 damage if it connects, the bazooka and panzershrek doing something like 40. Only the guards PTRS iirc has a reasonable chance of actually hitting models, however, the rest being comparable to the shrek and bazooka.
I'm not sure about the exact accuracy values, but given that handheld AT regularly misses tanks I assume that the base accuracy ranges between 3-5%. Which would be then the natural hit chance for infantry models.
I do not see any reason why single shreks should be better than they already are even(especially?) on these squads. Most of these units end up ironically granting the shrek in their possession better stats anyway through veterancy. Partisan tank hunters get extra 10% penetration, -20% reload, as well as 30% and 10% accuracy bonuses. Stormtroopers and Sturmpioniers get 40% accuracy compared to 16.7% and 20% on the Panzergrenadiers. Just for comparison, Rangers and Paratroopers only get +25% accuracy for their bazookas.
This isn't a change that is needed and this isn't an option that should be anywhere near meta in the first place imo. If I were to personally reluctantly approve of any change it'd maybe be an accuracy buff on solo shreks since, as has been said before, they fire slowly and they've only got one, but Shreks are already more likely to hit than not at most ranges anyway.
I don't much like 'elite' slot items differing wildly from their base counterparts (that very much includes elite bazookas) and so it stands I don't much like this idea. I've stated likewise on the PIAT thread as well, before anyone gets any ideas, though I do think something should be done about the out-of-cover reload debuff for them since putting PIATs on Tommies basically makes the PIAT as bad as it could possibly get.
You completely neglect the context of the weapon. The Schreck by stats is not bad, but a single Schreck is a waste of mun because it does not to enough 'threshhold damage' as I explained in the opening post.
Next point: I basically threw Partisans in thrre for the sake of completeness, but if they see some play afterwards that would be great. Obviously this decision should be made on a squad to squad basis, but the fact that all of them are completely underused while actually not being extremely micro intensive suggests that they are not in a good state.
Also I'm not sure where your accuracy stats are going. Panzergrenadiere get the dame accuracy buff as the other squads (basically ensuring high alpha damage) and they are not OP. I would leave bazookas out of the equation since the squads they are on and the tanks they fight differ wildly from what Schrecks face. This would just open a completely new field of discussion, and this is not what this topic is about. |
I bundled Battle Phase 3 and T4 together.
In proposal B, Battle Phase 3 is a requirement for medium armour.
See my edit, I got slightly confused because of a type in the box.
Yes, you are right then. |
Option A is functionally identical to the tech structure in the new patch. I matched all the costs on all the teching paths. All the costs match.
The current Ostheer tech design currently has a redundant Battle Phase in it. I just reshuffled it to be between T2 and T3 instead of T3 and T4.
I just meant that the previous patches basically moved most of the cost from buildings to battle phases.
I assumed that you had a typo in proposal B:
T3 is currently written that it only costs 140 MP, although the total tech cost to T3 also says it would cost 55 FU, which would also go along with keeping T3 timing. This proposal would revert the intended change from end 2018 to allow for easier back teching into T3. I'm not saying that this is good or bad, just wanted to point it out.
EDIT:
I just figured out that at option B the costs are confusing.
For the box at T3, you wrote the building cost is 140 MP, but as I said the FU cost also goes up by 55 FU. You wrote this probably with the locked units until you tech BP3 in mind. However, you then again forgot to add the MP cost from BP3. So the total cost in the T3 box is now a mix. The MP cost represents the total cost up to the T3 building (without BP3), while the FU cost represents the total cost WITH BP3. |
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