Profile of Hannibal

The USF have tools vs PzIV there is simply little reason to invest in them since one can get m36 instead.

Then please tell me which ones. I just discussed the AT options they have and they are not reliable. They also don't have easy access to standard mines to snare. The overall tank defense of USF is EXTREMELY micro intensive unless you get a Jackson.

Imo the "advantage" ostheer are designed have in medium tank play is crucial in debating and balancing the TDs.

Current medium tank play is almost non existent and that forces the MOD team to increase T4 availability (once more) to compensate. That imo is a step in the wrong direction.

(and that makes another medium TD thread running because without medium tanks there is little reason for medium TDs)

Simply increase the window of opportunity of units to pay off for the investment instead of buffing thing thru the roof to compensate for the limit window of opportunity...

The P4 is a very efficient tank for its cost.
I'd say the heavy tank meta should be fixed, because everyone is saving for a heavy instead of getting a medium. Pushing heavies back and creating a longer gap IS a good start.

I'm not sure why you think increasing T4 availability was done to compensate for a limited time frame for the units. T4 provides end game units. This will obviously not help to prolong medium play, but since T4 was rarely used in smaller modes it is good in general that this issue is addressed. I think fixing the heavy tanks will do more for the game than many suspect.

TDs will become less prevalent in the mid game. At the moment heavies come so early that getting a medium will only cause problems, because you don't have enough fuel to get a TD when the heavy comes. Conversely, getting a TD instantly is a safe bet because the heavy will come anyway. If this gets fixed than players have to decide if they really want to get a TD to shut down a single medium. Which is fine, because they then lack AI capabilities and it comes down again to positioning and micro if that choice was worth it or not. Otherwise they could just go medium as well which again emphasizes micro and positioning.

Time will tell if balance team pulls the right levers with this patch, but I think their idea is clear and concise.

While this poll is interesting, we cannot disregard the general faction that each TD has to work in. Of course the Jackson is too good for it's price, but that's because everything else in USF loadout does not reliably deal even with a P4.


Apart from this, I think the SU85 has the best design. Strong at it's job, weak vs infantry. Clear weakness by being a casemate. Excellent vet0 ability with a clear trade off.
Zhe firefly is okayish.too costly for the price, but UKF has a very good ATG as support. It offers utility instead of an ability, slight tweaks on the DPS vs alpha damage side. Overall I'd say it has a good idea with an acceptable implementation.
Jackson, well, we've had that before.

PF take up a commander slot and contrary to the majority of other doctrinal units they block the production pipe.


PF cost 270 Manpower to built and when built are less cost efficient than the majority of other mainline infatry of their time frame like conscripts/Riflemen/Grenadier/VG.


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Once one has invested at least 270/40 one can upgrade PF with 2 shreck for 100 mu. The unit is not has proven to be rather weak and not more cost efficient than bazooka RE or Piat Ro.E.

They can also upgrade for with 3 g43 while they need to reinforce bringing their total cost to 295/80.

Now if one compares their combat stat to that of Penal (the closest equivalent) one would see that they are not that mach better than penal although they become available later and cost 80 munition more. (They can actually lose long range in cover vs Penal)

According to their design they are supposed to start weaker and become better in mid game.
On the other hand if one compares them in vet 0 and vet 3 with Penal one will see that Penal actually get better combat stats.

So the only thing left is their "utility" which compared to VGs the both get snares both get grenades and PF have vet 1 flares while VG get sandbags.

Now I do not see how that justifies the 80 cost on their G43s or why they have to build-able and not call in.

For me that translates to following:
Either Penal or PF are badly designed
Either Penal need to also start weaker and have weapon upgrade or Pf need to start stronger
Either Penal are OP or PF are UP since G43 PF take up a commander slot, come later, cost more and do not scale better
Shreck PF are not cost efficient

In sort:
PF need no nerfs, especially losing a g43 as suggested. They could actually get some buff to their K98 and some nerf to their G43 and lowering the price of the upgrade.(or a redesign becoming cheaper as supplement to support VG while bringing utility)

Penals are a mess and need to be looked at.

One thing though that you should not forget for Penals: They are overly strong because they do not get support by any basic support weapons, so the main line has to carry everything. Panzerfüsiliere get support by an MG and Raketen after a couple of minutes.
I might be wrong on this: but does the G43 not also give increased sight to ~42 or something like that?
I also would not say that Penals vet that much better than Panzerfüsiliere, although I have not tested it yet. Penals get more accuracy, but less RA. Hard to factor in their Last Man ability though, probably makes them a bit better. Tests should tell. Did you already make some, I have to wait until tomorrow? The rest is cheaper satchels vs flare, sprint and faster decap. A snare that is usually more versatile.

I'm not saying that everything is perfect regarding Panzerfüsiliere, Volks and Penals, but all in all they are in a good state if you factor in their respective faction.

Can all the people debating about semantics and throwing in mostly random Con/Penal comparisons now please COMPLETELY cut it and go back to the actual thread topic.

And since this thread has not had too much substance so far: please at least try tp back up your claims with some data or at least a well thought out argumenz instead of 'nO TheY guD' and 'No ThEy bAd'

yea i did but it's from october

That should be the current live version if I'm not mistaken.