A doctrinal ability should not dictate the balance of a stock unit. If that were the case, we could nerf the Brummbar to the ground because Ostheer already has frag bombs to deal with infantry blobs.
But back to the point: I don't have any tests or data, but I am fairly certain that only a KV2 can reliably deal with an ATG. A Comet won't wipe the ATG from range 20-40 without getting hit hard himself. The phosphorus can deal some damage, that is true though. A Brummbar can do it though. Usually two shots are sufficient. The main point however was that you cannot reliably counter the Brummbar with anything else than a TD. Mediums are unreliable, ATGs will heavily bleed you or get wiped and bazookas are probably the worst thing to get in this case.
Moving will increase the horizontal scatter from 2,5 to 5, which allows for misses but is still a lot better than any other tank even while standing. Angular scatter goes up from 6-12 which is about average compared to other vehicles. Angular scatter takes less effect though on smaller ranges, and the Brummbar excels if it can get close. What makes it miss is rather the Brummbar targeting a model at the edge plus the travel time.
imo we should have some consideration for doctrine ability and even bulletin boosters. in general speak
there is reason why allies AT rockets are so strong.
but still this topic suggestion have run its course, next better topic |
Stop projecting how you play on others. If you seriously have issues dealing with allied infantry no wonder you're screeching so hard about the Brummbar being fine and "60 range TDs". Brummbar is even more responsive and effective than Sherman 105 even though the latter has a turret and is a doctrinal unit. It's more survivable too so not having a rotating turret doesn't do much bad for it. I'd much rather have a Brummbar than a Sherman 105 when playing as US. I won't mind if the StuPa won't get changed however - at least playing as Ostheer will still be an easy point and click game.
yes agreed i dont think brumbar needs more nerfs, anymore is just punishing for the already widely accepted punishing faction for ost player |
Lowering the speed would allow it to still do its job while requiring to pick the fights better. Speed is not as important during defense like during offense. A speed nerf would rather go towards the offense I think.
Overall I am not sure if the Brum needs changes. The balance changes two patches ago already put it into an okay spot. The main issue I see is that if you go for a medium as Allies and your opponent goes Brummbar, you're pretty much screwed. Especially as T1 Soviets.
Maybe it needs a very slightly increased fuel cost or so, but that's probably it.
Yap dont forget allies also have strong AT rockets strafe. and brumbar has to hit larger infantry squad.
Therefore the concentration on brumbar fast decrewing ATG is misguided. Imo it is as fast decrewing as centuar, kv8, comet, even shermans.
my brumbar is used more to clear allies dig in mg or sandbag infantry. or to protect my paks as they fight against 60TD or simply a deterrance against allies infantry blob play.
ATG is 2nd secondary for brumbar, only when i see allies ATG are too far unprotected then i try to move in.
Also im sure manual firing brumbar on the move, will cause the shot to under/over hit most of the time |
Oh my oh my. We are hitting autism levels not thought to be possible.
1) Watching games =/= becoming better. If that were true, I'd become a chess grandmaster based on the number of games I've seen. Still, I don't think Queen to be OP and Pawns to be UP
2) Tightrope casts in a higher skill bracket, mostly 2v2.
3) OST is not OP
4) You won't see a lot of brummbar in high skill 2v2 games because it's not really a game mode for heavy tanks. Best you can do in 2v2 is KT or IS-2. ISU152 here and there on lane-y maps (elefant/jagd). Even less so in 1v1.
The whole point of 1v1 and 2v2 is to close the game fast, before KT is paired with obers and a Panther or werfer is combined with PGrens and a Panther + a supporting vetted pak.
By your arguments, we can conclude that the USF is the weakest team game faction and both axis factions the strongest. Or that brits are completely UP. Or w/e the case may be with the number of games played/win rates or some other quasi BS excuse.
Just give it a rest dude. Anyone with half a brain would commit mental suicide because of your arguments surrounding "allies OP, axis UP"
please dont put words in my mouth. what's with the toxicity around?
you main allies-usf, a faction build around late game terminator infantry to Jackson. i can understand your aversion to brumbar.
at my side, i main ost and i needed the brumbar for late game control, either defensive or push to catch up vp. please understand |
Stop watching random 4v4 games uploaded by clueless, 15 APM wehraboos then and watch some where people with a clue use them... I know the former are much more relatable, but latter will show you reality you struggle to recognize.
stop being so toxic with your backhanded insult
i have not seen top players requesting further brumbar nerfs. /end |
You really don't play anything except axis and even when you play axis your obviously don't play on any level that would net you a decent problem solving COH brain.
"when against 60 TD with almost 2x range" --> infantry moves in front of TDs and if you're skilled at all, you will be able to nuke infantry while keeping away from those pesky 60 TDs (which are not 60 range because of the brummbar but because of other weaknesses).
5 man grens got a deserved nerf. Again, if you considered them not OP then you obviously needed their OP status to win anything (eg. a good player can win with worse units while a bad one needs to only exclusively play with the best ones, that's why in low rank games you'll se a much narrower unit roster).
Holding back any allies blob rush is with the following:
Early game: MGs or mortar + infantry behind cover or flanking with a bait
Mid game: Stuka, werfer, MGs, LVs
Late game: Anything
Again, you're clearly biased, which is not condemning. However, you also have very little knowledge of how to play COH2 because you compare apples and oranges, have no clue on how to play with apples vs pears and consider -10 armor on brummbar a considerable nerf.
The bias part I understand, but you really need to play vs better opponents to force yourself to be flexible with the axis.
EDIT: Considering "weaker" or "stronger" units. There are no "weaker" or "stronger" units just units that require less micro and have better stats than the opponents "counterpart" (if one exists). If you really think that allies have stronger units or that axis have stronger tanks or that any faction, axis or ally is in any way OP, play them and you'll get a sense.
You obviously play against people that also have no clue and hence can't judge on the faction's weaknesses.
i watch plenty of tightrope cast games, if brumbar is so dominant, why am i not seeing loop sided ost win rates? |
It one or at worst case, two shots ALL infantry units in game with exceptionally high accuracy.
It does not need to be long in combat to deliver a blow making a difference.
I recommend re-watching casts of last 2v2 tournament, where it completely dominated allied infantry and ATGs if you have doubts about its performance.
i watch plenty on youtube and hardly dominating... |
But that is good. Brummbar is exceptionally strong frontally while weak for flanking. That is good design. Of course it has weaknesses, but it is also the almost only unit that can stand in front of an ATG (its supposed counter) and wipe the floor with it.
My point was that for casemats, the Brummbar has decent rotation and in general it has decent mobility for a heavy unit.
The Brummbar needs to be stationary to fire while manually targeting. It can fire on the move like any other unit. I don't know the multiplier by heart, but it has such a low base scatter that moving the unit should not do much.
that's all brumbar is, an effective late game infantry counter. effective but hardly op.
ATG are not it's direct counter. imo it is medium tanks. like all casemate, once flanked, its too slow and take hits like an abused spouse. ATG and 60TD are support that helps.
its not like pak is a direct counter to KV tanks and churchill.
also i would say ost grens and pgren have a harder time decrewing allies ATG....
|
You mean that pathetic -10 armour? That's not a real nerf, just a checkmark to put in the change log.
it is real hard nerf. when against 60td with almost 2x range, and faster rof and speed.
bunker buster cost muni too
maybe you don't a-move your infantry blob? spread them out? i mean ost 5 men grens got a huge nerf, what's left to hold back allies blob rush? lmg grens? lol
sounds like you just want balance to continue favor terminator allies blob supported with ATG wall |
Fortunatly with the recent raise in power of computor grafic cards we're not fighting on a excel spreadsheet anymore. In real game 62-78% is rather a poor statistic for a unit that is specifically designed to counter tanks and highly vulnerable to anything else. Even more when you have to pay munition for it.
75% still mean you can shot 25 times in a row and not score a penetration shot and still reach the 75% chance. But more realistically on a 5-10 seconds engagement means that you can bounced 2 or 3 times and see the brumbar, to which those statistics doesn't apply, always decrew your ATG in two shots. Here there isn't even the question of manual targeting with the brumbar since the ATG can't realisticaly move to mitigate the damage and its shield don't stop the shell.
The problem with the brumbar is that there isn't an in between alternative to ATG and Tank destroyers since medium tanks suffer worst penetration value making them during a prolonged engagement easy target to the inevitable pak park behind the Brumbar.
At the end, dealing with a brumbar is mostly about dealing with the pak wall and the rest of the Ostheer army with Rocket arty and then finishing the Brumbar before it finish you.
ost have it worse when dealing with kv tanks and churchills.... |
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