Tank destroyers already have the accuracy advantage over the Panther at medium and long range.
Quite significantly so in case of the Firefly and the SU-85.
Panther has 0.06/0.045/0.035 accuracy at ranges 0/25/50, and 24 target size.
SU-85 has 0.06/0.045/0.04 accuracy at ranges 0/30/60, and 18 target size;
Jackson has 0.05/0.045/0.035 at ranges 0/30/60, and 24 target size;
Firefly has 0.06/0.05/0.04 (0.066/0.055/0.044 with Tank Commander) accuracy at ranges 0/45/60 and 23 target size.
Might just be the combat distances then. With how short they are compared to real life it’s hard to simulate accuracy like in Steel Division 2 for instance.
Perhaps a good solution would be to divide hits into hits and critical hits, with TDs being more likely to score crits when they pen. You could then increase armour a bit. TDs would still fight off heavies, and armour would matter more. |
People pretend like not having 100% penetration at max range vs Panther will suddenly make Jackson and SU 85 bad. Meanwhile the Firefly doesn't have this penetration either and on top has horrible mobility and slow reload. In my proposal, Allied TDs would still have an almost guaranteed chance to penetrate Panthers. It doesn't serve to just make Axis better but to make the Firefly suck less in comparison to SU 85 and Jackson.
Tigers get penetrated so easily by Jacksons and SU 85 that the armour feels almost completely meaningless. This also applies to a lesser extend to KT and even Ele and JT.
Medium tanks are in a bad spot now, I agree with that. But the solution to that is to delay heavy tanks by giving them all 10 or 11 CP + build time. The KT is fine as it is due to tech cost and overall price but all the other heavies should be changed in that way.
The more I think about this, the more I think accuracy should be a primary factor in this, not a small rng chance to miss once in 20 shots. TDs should have an accuracy advantage over MBTs, not just pen. In this case the Panther would have an armour and HP advantage over a TD, but the TD would have the accuracy advantage from range and would win unless the panther flanks and closes in. |
ZiS.... being worst then 57mm.... how exactly? By having more penetration? Larger crew? Not needing a muni dump each time you want to pen something more armored then ostwind? And I'd really argue if SU-85 is "worse" then jackson - its less flexible, but it doesn't require spotter.
I mean just by rate of fire, plus usf doesn’t spam mines like soviets so it’s not really a muni dump. Yes I think the 57mm is better, though 6man crew is better than 4, but that’s a faction thing and it works with stolen weapons.
The SU85 is not as great as the Jackson, which can hunt down enemy tanks and score kills with its moving accuracy and turret. |
I tried a Brummbar in a 4v4 on Red Ball and a KV8 in a 2v2 on Elst last night.
The Brummbar didn't get lots of kills (22), but it made it really difficult for the two players on the other side to keep infantry near the front line. It didn't get any 1-shot wipes, but can reliably 2-shot wipe squads if they don't retreat. The only thing I didn't like about it is a couple times I wanted to use the vet ability and fire into the fog of war. If a new unit would come into view, the ability would either cancel or fire at it, which isn't what I wanted. I think it is priced right and doesn't need any buffs or nerfs.
The KV8 on Elst got a lot of kills at first, wiping several raketen crews, but ultimately ended up dying to raketens. It doesn't move fast, and really feeds vet to raketens. Its damage against infantry on the move still seems bad compared to a flamer HT. I was really surprised by the 45mm. I got a couple of penetrations against a Panther with it. I'd rather see the flamer part buffed a bit and the AT nerfed.
You can’t nerf the KV8’s main gun. It’s the exact 45mm At gun you get from Urban and community defense, so stats are the same (pen is better on the 45mm arty). |
Balance goes to ways. Jackson TD is the only non-doctrinal reason USF can last in the late game against axis armor. Even then people so go for Pershing.The USF ATG doesn't cut it even with the HVAP that bounce on panthers and tigers. The only reason people go, captain, is for the Stuart in 1v1s.
Meanwhile Soviets last without bazookas, a worse AT gun,, a worse TD and a significantly worse medium tank. |
On October 7, more than 6,140 paratroopers of the 201st and 10th brigades of the 5th airborne corps with 8th T-37 light tank, 6th mountain guns, 10th 45mm AT guns, 8th 82mm mortars and the 33rd 50-mm mortars were delivered with 80 planes to the aerodromes of Orel and Mtsensk, some aircraft had to land under arlery and AA fire. Paratroopers held German troops until the 4th Tank Brigade.
Just taking a real history could make a very interesting and “Company of Heroes” style mission.
That would mean relic would have to present the real history, not the americanized version stemming from distorted German views. A quick look at intel bulletin descriptions tells you all you need to know. |
Guys u forget FF has Sherman armor
I mean, it IS an M4. |
The base pen could go to 260/240/210 (which would be a slight buff overall). It's just the veterancy penetration buff that would be deleted in my proposal. The base pen for Jackson, SU85 and Firefly could also be moved to maybe 260/240/230 instead. Would still be better than the current stats that make the FF have way less penetration even though it should be at least equal due to mobility, reload and cost.
I wouldn’t mind, but then I’d like the SU85 to get something else good from vet since extra pen is the biggest highlight. You can’t have a vet 3 andn a vet 0 su85 having negligible differences. |
Agree with a lot of things but the SU 85 is actually very fast at vet 3. It has even more top speed than the Jackson. It's another very odd thing about Allied TDs but it's true nonetheless.
Jackson vet 0 and vet 3 mobility: 6.5/3
SU 85 Vet0 and vet 3 mobility: 5.7/2.1 and 6.8/2.5
Of course Jackson still has way more mobility because of the turret and acceleration but still the SU85 isn't slow.
Sorry, meant to say no hunting capacity to chase down, due to 50% moving accuracy and no turret or turning speed. Straight line speed it’s indeed great. |
I think Firefly is more or less fine, it's just the Jackson and to a lesser extend the SU 85 that are making it look bad.
Making all three have the same penetration value would make things a lot more balanced. Jackson would still have the most penetration if the player decides to go HVAP. Right now no one uses HVAP because it's completely pointless against anything but KT/JT/Ele.
If the SU85 gets a pen nerf, there better be a pen buff for the T34/76. |
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