Did u read my post or not? The AT gun shield doesn't affect the guys manning the weapons. They get both full damage from small arm fire and explosives. On the past i did this by activating cheatcommands and looking at the damage a single Ober model (can't miss with vet) would do to all 2 man AT gun crew.
Due to how targeting works and formations, 90% of the time the models which are focus fired first and targeted are the ones manning the crew. Why? Because they are in the front and are the only available targets once infantry/vehicles enter on it's range.
Now check the pic for the default formation on the rest of the AT guns. It's a V shape on which the other 2 crews are separated so they don't all die to a single AoE shell. The only AT gun crew which benefits them is the Zis gun, because 2 models are been protected by the AT gun itself.
I'll give you an example from the most recent game i could find casted by Dane.
Once a single model dies on any 4man crew weapon, it will "magically" pop up a green shield because the majority of the models are supposedly behind cover (the 2 guys behind the weapons) but they don't benefit from them. Only when due to moving the weapon and other units passing by forcing the crew to move they will get behind cover. The default formation on all AT guns crew don't let them benefit from the At guns cover.
Don't bother with the stats, take a look at the model.
The only difference between with other AT guns is that the weapon itself probably has a bigger hitbox which will block incoming scatter shots (which i'm not sure if it's good or bad due to AoE).
NOW, what probably happens in the late game, is that due to craters forming up, crew will try to stay together inside those craters. This will force crew to change their default formation to bunch up inside, which for other AT guns means having 2 models benefiting from the green cover at best.
The best buff the Rak could ever receive is this: Projectile now ignores terrain elevation
Honestly the player in video keep the gun up and moving, with models being on the sides carrying it, far from an example.
Additionally health started dropping when atg started moving.
And how is irrelevant ? 2 extra models are out of cover, AND ?
Soldiers focus small arms fire on those manning, not the extra operators.
As far as I know, regardless of shield size, ALL ATG have green cover that actually benefit at least 2 operators like zis..those manning it.
FFS it was under fire FRONTALLY, it got no damage, then received a rifle nade and kept gun up and models carrying it were shot and started receiving full damage, it ACTUALLY proves normal ATG benefit from it....
"Once a single model dies on any 4man crew weapon, it will "magically" pop up a green shield because the majority of the models are supposedly behind cover"
NONONO, ABSOLUTELY LOL
That's not how it works, green cover is for single entity, a model in negative of a squad of 5 men with 4 men in cover will get negative malus and simply die regardless of his m8's.
????? USF dont have good infantry and light vehicles?!!! WTF. Imagine your smoke was on ur pack howitzer for a second.
They are trying to make it so people stop spamming rifle builds and use rear echelons more often in conjunction with riflemen. ATM USF is the faction that uses the least combined arms why? because they don't have to when riflemen can be equipped to do everything
Lel I was like, are we talking about the faction with the only vehicle that suppress on the move ? XD
Recon passes technically work, but the cooldown means that, in practice, they don't actually do anything about the problem he stated. Recon passes are used to see enemy troop movements and positioning or to scout positions before an assault; seeing a raketen for 3 seconds every (not exactly sure on the cooldown) 40-60 seconds doesn't really help much. This is only made worse by the fact that its a pretty costly ability for what it is (60 munitions iirc, maybe even 45 or 30?) in a munitions reliant faction.
As for Recon loiters, none of the top tier doctrines have them. USF crutches pretty hard on armor company, so taking something with a recon loiter is essentially already a disadvantage (though I do think tactical support is underused and underrated). Add to the fact that okw has free AA with other good AA options and recon loiters are less effective than one would hope. They do work though.
Main conclusion: You're not wrong, but you havent really addressed or countered his point either
50 muni, I don't remember cooldown, I use it when needed so I don't really spam it enough to remember/care about cooldown.
1 thing tho, AA isn't an issue for recon PASS, I have never lost it, as it fly through the map and isn't a loiter like doctrinal one.
It's just a problem unit altogether. When it works it works way too friggen well. I've had 3 rifle squads blaring down a raketwerfer on retreat and doing absolutely nothing to it. Being able to retreat on an AT gun is also something people seem to overlook. Or I had a jackson obliterated by two surprise rakets stealthed with no way to scout for it other then walking right on top of it. They can also get it tier 0 which counters so much light vehicle play.
On the other hand it misses sometimes and I've noticed it's more susceptible to being one shot by tanks. So when heavy tanks hit the field you bet it's going to be obliterated. A problem unit indeed.
Except that usf get non doctrinal/doctrinal recon pass/loiter...
1v1 gets more resources on average till min 15. From that point onwards, 4v4 get's more resources the longer the game drags on. What you can get away with on teamgames (including 2v2) is having one dimensional armies or rushing to certain tiers/vehicles due to not having the requirement of having a proper army which has to control the map. Outside of 1v1, cut offs and resource denial is non existant.
Having a proper 1v1 balance doesn't mean you will necessarily have a balanced 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 game. Units that are broken on 1v1 doesn't mean they are equally cancerous on 4v4 or viceversa.
Ex:
Except that
1) raketen by design bunch models (but nobody care, inconsistencies aren't on scope, only on the "RA normalization" is) that makes it easily wipeable more than other atg
2) green cover offers small arms protection..and a 50 range atg not having such protection means a LOT.
3) green cover STILL affect aoe based explosion of several kinds, including grenades and mortar shells scattered falling beyond the green cover.
4) the point 2 makes raketen even weaker against tank than point 1, because t34/sherman/whatever mg/pintle considerably damage the crew even frontally.
Like I said, nothing beyond 2vs2 should exist, it simply isnt playable..
You perfectly showed good points regarding how "clusterfuck" modes affect balance..
So you want it to be able to stand up to single infantry squads like a volks squad like it does now? Because they're hard to wipe with a squad with dps less than double bars even if it's alone and isn't retreated right away. I actually steal them all the time because any at gun is better than no at gun (poor lt) and the fact that they have no gunshield is basically irrelevant until real tanks show up (even if they do give green cover) because you can just retreat it and its original crew is basically normal volksgrenadiers. Time after time I'll find some rak that was sitting in camo with a patrolling rifle squad or section and it'll just retreat after a couple seconds of taking point blank rifle and/or automatic fire and lose maybe 1-2 men.
So it hits the ground sometimes or misses a UC at max range. Boo hoo. Usf at gun can barely penetrate an okw p4 at mid range without constantly spamming ap rounds and will get wiped by stukas (really the only thing stukas excel at though- deleting team weapons).
No of course...it's right, it should have same RA of any other factions team weapons, but no shield like other factions team weapons, because balance.
Oh I LOVE double standards..
Barely---> 60% chance of penetration against okw panzer4 at mid range.
The gun itself has:
-An ability to increase pen for that heavy/panther
-FULL 60 range
-An ability to increase such range and provide vision for itself
-An increased rof compared to any other atg PASSIVE.
Usf atg is the second best atg in game right after pak...just saying...and has the highest dps out of all atg against mediums and the highest against heavies with ap...
What, aimed specialized anti team weapons 100 fuel rocket arty useless against any barely decent blobber is actually good at wiping team weapons ?..shocked.
Talking like calliOP "tank" and land "40fuel" mattress dominating in cost efficiency/versatility and saturation aren't ten times better and far more powerful...because double standards...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I heard somewhere that the at gun crews don't actually benefit from the green cover that their gun shields supposedly create. If someone could confidently confirm or deny that I would appreciate it.
The thing still has retreat too.
Oh yeah, funny.
50 range atg with no cover has the ability to rotate the gun and enter in a juicy death loop...
Good news is.... raketen is so trash the enemy won't recrew it actually.
An atg that dies frontally to the trashiest and most inexpensive generalist in game ...
Cloaking movespeed has been nerfed to 50%. While that doesn't sound like a lot, it will prevent raketenwerfers from amassing veterancy through search-and-destroy missions.
They'll still be annoying as hell to use/counter, but that seems to have been their design intent from the very beginning.
Well...they would still die to tanks before firing the second shot FRONTALLY too, and will now die frontally to infantry too because of the "fixed" RA of any other team weapons because lacking the "non fixed" green shield any other atg that isn't a meme has, and I can't believe nobody in the team noticed by playing the mod...
"but that seems to have been their design intent from the very beginning."
You mean the super advanced design that includes volksshrek ?
This is the point of the change. I should reiterate that I spoke of reducing the health to 720, and potentially reducing or removing the vet2 health bonus. The panther would, indeed, be the best tank hunter, (given that the cost would be unchanged) but it would retain its weakness to anything infantry.
Also known as infantry handheld AT.
Perhaps with vet the panther might achieve 800 health in this scenario. That's a big part of this idea: reducing the capacity for the panther to absorb damage. The panther currently only achieves this at vet 2 when it starts sporting 960 health.
StuG G is in ostheer t3. Not OKW flak truck or in Soviet t4. It's a unit that has been hardcore crutched on as one of the only cost efficient anti tank measures available to ostheer.
Neither the su85 or the jp4 are meant to be damage sponges, which is what I am suggesting here. And as far as I'm concerned the jp4 and the su85 is what the stug has been made into for a long time.
The idea is to migrate that sense of critical mass of armored health (with vet) onto stugs, which are much less capable of roving around 4v4 maps wiping everything with wheels or tracks.
But like I said, this is a change that affects the core backbone of ostheer at this point, so it would have to be playtest ed rather extensively. We're pretty late in the game, for both DBP and COH2 alike, though. A lot of reinvention is already taking place.
It's actually a good idea, probably the best, as it gives a role/identity to the panther/jadg/stug
Sorry to say, I'm just hoping there is a late winter/spring Patch as well. Never liked the multiple buffs/nerfs to a wide variety of units. Thought we figured out shortly after WFA that large patches don't work. That the community likes multiple small patches.
I hope I'm wrong, but history tells me there is an unforseen broken unit/strategy/bug that won't be discovered till about 24 hours after Patch release.
I'm not being doubtful, just real. Now I understand I might have entered a particular mods safe space with this post on well. Just not looking forward for another 6 months of cheese.
Will most likely break 1vs1 and 2vs2, while 3vs3 and 4vs4 will still be trashy unbalanced modes.
The reason is that resources are MULTIPLIED, not DIVIDED per players...which means resource inflation and favour the faction that can have access to the best/expensive tanks, that otherwise would be perfectly balanced.
I laugh at Sturmpanther telling me they are REDESIGNING maps, those maps would be a three lane clusterfuck again and there is nothing they can do to fix it.
3vs3 and 4vs4 shouldn't exist in first place..
Oh SURE, 4vs4 will be (kinda) balanced, now that obers are necessary to compete (easily wipeable by katyusha/LM spam) and panthers sucks even when blobbed, other than just when alone, it would be an evenly balanced attrition war made of cheese and arty spam...the question is how will okw/ost ever compete in 1vs1 ?
The idea that a now non scaling unit cost 25mp to reinforce and something as ridiculously bad as grens cost 30mp, that panther is a barely decent generalist (true only if blobbed like teamgamers like/hate), that panther issues are given by teching cost (only partially untrue), that giving smoke to RE will fix anything at all or make those useful, that just show how far are 1vs1 and teamgames, that a 0.6 seconds improvement in reload of a now not even highly durable panther would make it useful, or that their teamgames oriented point of view made them think panther "is in a good spot" (with great laughs from anyone in the community with a grasp of small game modes) just show why the balance team would never be able to find a fix for ANY mode at all, especially 1vs1.
The whole effort of previous balance patch, making any unit able to stand on its own in 1vs1, more than reasonable, is getting crushed, to balance 4vs4 1 bridge 8 katyusha map that WILL NEVER be balanced anyway (that 9000 near fuel icon may be the reason @Mr.Smith).
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