Profile of Protos Angelus

+1



A bit wild but maybe.

On the paper the EZ8 has some niche, but what's probably the issue is that it falls just short in all categories.
- +1 shot it can take? Very nice
- 215 armor? Good for the mid phase, scales mediocre into the late game. 215 is in a weird spot of letting you bounce unvetted ATGs, but you get guaranteed pens by Panthers and vetted ATGs.
- AT performance? Nice, closes the gap vs the P4. Not the best deal vs OKW T3 and Ost T4 though because too unreliable. Slow ROF, so no surprise burst damage. Especially if it cannot be reliably followed up by an ATG.
- AI performance? A lot worse than the flexibility you get with the normal Sherman. With MG upgrade okay. I think this is the long term deal breaker. Once late game units arrive, mediums usually transition more into an AI role. The EZ8 can't do that while having only "okay" AT for the phase.


I see two possibilities:
Either make it a infantry support unit with support abilities. Or strengthen the brawler role and make it a "Panther light" -> health to 880 or 960, armor not quite sure (maybe leave as is with the vehicle crew), penetration to 200/180/170 with +10% with vet, range 45-50 (potentially 45 +5 with vet?), MP cost to 420-440, FU cost 160, pop to 16.

This way it would have a distinct role as a different AT unit from both Jackson and 76mm, while Axis could still counter it because it gets damaged reliably by dedicated AT units. Scaling into the late game would also be improved with at least a ~70-75% pen chance vs higher tier armor which is still less than the Jackson to not outclass that unit. At all times it would lose to a more expensive Panther while still being a threat to it with support.

big +

Look, if you want the Allied Panther be prepared to pay Panther prices....or play Comets with their own tech costs.

Yeah, allies having a Panther would bring about a lot of problems. USF having a meatier tank however, would not. I can't see why they don't buff HP to 800 and armour to 230 and further increase the price. Panther would still eat them for lunch but would give USF a tank that could work in teamgames. I mean, HE Sherman is a rare sight in anything beyond 3v3, with the hidden raketen and whatnot, so the argument HE Sherman + Jackson does not really hold water. You give up on two extremes (extreme AI and extreme AT, super fragile) for a generalist tank that can take a punch.

Why is this even a thread? Mortar flares are normal since: They need a unit to pop it. They can't be just instantly popped anywhere on the map (like spec ops).
Only thing that could be done (if it's not already) is to put flares behind vet1. That's it. Fussies have flares which work within the utility part of the unit and give value, and same as mortar flares, require a unit/range dependent.
This is nothing but a "Lost to soviet mortar flares, OP" thread...

Problem with Turing the E8 into a Panther is you will STILL have a Jackson along side it. So then you have a durable meatshields that can punch at heavy cats AND a 60 range powerhouse that can outrage, brawl and chase. It's no contest between being in the shit or outside of it shooting in with no risk of return fire. That's the problem with the E8. It's got no purpose because the Jackson makes it obsolete.

There is no scenario where USF Sherman variants work while the Jackson is the perfect AT machine in every single scenario.
The only way the E8 could find a nich is as a command vehicle with extra abilities that make its unneeded role irrelevant. Sorta like the command panzer where the tank itself is next to useless but the abilities it brings have value.

You seriously undervalue AT/AI tanks. Jackson is a powerhouse in 1v1 and 3v3+ OPEN maps. On closed up maps like Hamburger port or Angrymundy, Essen Turdworks, Ettelbruck Turdstation it's value goes down due to the lane-y nature and really no benefit of having a turret.

You could easily use a bit beefier tank that has decent AT but also has AI (something that jackson has absolutely 0 of).
Furthermore, in 1v1s it's potential would be heightened since you won't encounter more than one panther and in case of P4s, it will win 1v1 (only thing that can change that is the support you/opponent is using).
Lastly, a tank like E8 would be the USF version of "Hail Mary attempt" in lategame teamgames. Currently Panthers, T34-85s and Comets can be used that way. Panthers probably the best because of the pintle MG (which will target infantry 360, unlike turret MGs which target infantry at turret vector or hull MGs -- tank vector).

The only thing that I would further buff E8 with is the armour and increase the price by 5 fuel (230 armour).

E8 could be a tank that will lose to a Panther 1v1 but has smoke canisters and better AI (and with the commander upgrade on it, can focus AT or AI) and there is always a fact that there are other units on the field. A panther might zone out the E8 but your AT gun/ pak howis can zone out the panther/pak40. Still a lot more micro than the OST, which relies on more expensive but tougher tanks, but with good execution you can have a tank that has value in 1v1 and 3v3+.

2x E8s would be a good hunting squadron compared to Jackson + Sherman HE that would not be susceptible to dives.

Really explain this to me then: why are the brits on the button of the charts despite being the best brute force faction. The soviets have the best way to shut the okw down. A simple at gun line with a kathusya in the back is enough to destroy 95 % of the okw tactics.

Infantry spread out. Katyushas [multiple] with an AT wall [multiple] is pop heavy. You can easily flank the AT wall and can easily spread out infantry to negate damage.

"Walls" are only viable to OST on 3v3+ lane maps like Redshit express or Hamburger port. And an AT wall is super easily counterable by a stuka.