Profile of Lago

So.... TDs pen 100% of the time meds, so pen vet is irrelevant here.

But..... reliably penning heavies is bad.

But..... heavy tank meta is bad as well, however hard countering them is... bad... too?

#coh2communityinanutshell

Were it that simple, I'd agree with you.

But nothing exists in isolation. Were these extreme penetration values less so, you'd be able to bring down the armour values on heavy tanks without deleting them from the game.

TDs having them makes more sense since they currently have to fight kill-everything heavy tanks every game, though the M36 could probably do without it with HVAP.

But if TDs need it, why don't they all get it?

His point is a P4 can't counter the AVRE because it takes insane amounts of time for a P4 to land enough penetrating hits to take the AVRE down. It's not about the AVRE killing the P4.

If a P4 could dive and kill an AVRE nobody would ever build the AVRE. It does enough damage to force the AVRE to play defensively, which is what matters. No marauding around like a shock unit.

When the next tank's worth of fuel comes around, the UKF player has a medium and an AVRE, and the other player has two mediums. The UKF player will have to lean on their ATGs to keep their tanks alive, which forces them into a more defensive playstyle until they can gain the armour advantage.

It's not that different to building an Ostwind or a Centaur as your first tank: you inflict a lot of bleed, but you hand armour superiority to your opponent.

Currently, some vehicles get improved penetration in their veterancy bonuses, and some don't. The vehicles that do are overwhelmingly the ones that already have high penetration. Lower penetration values tend to get accuracy and mobility improvements, offsetting their weaknesses rather than augmenting their strengths.

Because armour values need to be balanced with this veterancy-scaling penetration in mind, lower penetration vehicles like the SU-76 and StuG tend to get left in the dirt. Units like the Jackson and SU-85 gain penetration as they vet up, turning them into anti-heavy armour wrecking balls, but units in the same role like the Firefly don't.

Wouldn't it be easier to balance the penetration system if we replaced these penetration bonuses with something else? Veterancy is conveyed to the player in such vague terms that it wouldn't be a UX issue, and it'd make balancing armour that much easier.

EDIT:
The vehicles that get penetration buffs are as follows.

Light Vehicles
M20 Utility Car (+50%, Vet 3)
M15A1 AAHT (+30%, Vet 3)
251 Flak HT (+15%, Vet 5)

Medium Vehicles
SU-85 (+30%, Vet 2)
M4C Sherman (+25%, Vet 3)
M36 Jackson (+30%, Vet 3)
Jagdpanzer IV (+25%, Vet 5)

It's a pretty small set of units to change, but with the tanks especially it can have a big impact.

You don't think the AVRE is too good for 9CP?

The purpose of CP delays is to give the opponent time to tech and build counters. That's why heavies used to be CP13. Against the old form of heavy stalling you could often throw two Panthers at an IS-2 staller by the time it finally came out.

The AVRE and Sturmtiger are countered by any medium armour that doesn't sit still to get hit, so it doesn't need that delay.