You dont need a FRP to skip that risk/reward situation. As SOV/OST you can build a certain Halftrack that authorise you to reinforce in the very heat of battle, even skipping that need of retreat. On the countrary, i can find you a lot of replays that show that HT reinforcing Ostruppen at lightspeed was clearly a winnning factor. But i fint it honest as it is a very fragile thing that need to stick your forces.
Kozo.
Uhh... the halftrack costs fuel and it has to be on the frontline. It does not remove suppression and it takes up pop cap. What are you talking about?
I would take an FRP over a soft reinforce point ANYDAY. The ability to run into suppression, retreat, approach or divide your forces for the next engagement 20 seconds later is way more powerful than... run my units into suppression and keep reinforcing them under suppression? sure............. lol.
If a mg pins down your 2-3 infantry squads, what would you do? stay, do no damage, and continue to reinforce or retreat? good mg placement rewards players but the reward is mitigated with an FRP. |
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FRPs were not as big of a problem because...
Riflemen weren't buffed until recently. M1919 wasn't overused because it was only on one commander but now it's on the supposedly OP calliope one as well. Originally, the meta was easy 8 commander with flamer riflemen that only excelled in close combat without the buff.
OKW had a resource constraint... losing squads or even models became a heavy MP drain on their economy. However, once that was removed and volks were buffed, blobbing become rewarded as there isn't as heavy a drawback as before.
That is why FRPs are bad.
For UKF, their units cost so much and high reinforce rate, that's why they are not as cost effective as OKW and USF. That is also why you hear OKW players crying about obersoldaten costs. they can't spam those and maintain a floating MP because of high reinforce. |
I think adding the SdKfz250 to Tier2 would be a better idea, so Pgrens could get inside and chase that goddamn stuart.
Yes and lol chase everything else too. flank mortars, mgs, bunkers, snipers, mobile artillery, FRP with a super low fuel cost vehicle.
Give me panzershreks instead of AT rifles and I'll do it more on a M3.
WC51 Jeep is doctrinal but can be effectively used with a captain.
So no... you have a horrible idea. SdKfz250 remains doctrinal. |
Just saw the other day in a reply how Ciez and Mom4sho lost again a team who constantly bombarded the OKW FRP with CalliOP. There was nothing to do against it. People who complain about FRPs just don't know how to fight against such strategies that involve FRPs but there are people who appear to know.
YOU AGAIN!?
and Hans... I don't see your counter argument... 150-200 munitions for a delayed retreat? nice tradeoff 150-200 munitions doesn't nullify an FRP. He just toggles it back on.
You're talking about late game counters. What is the early game counter? Sorry, I don't hear one. What about other faction early FRPs? Oh wait... SOV, USF, OST don't get early FRPs and SOV and OST don't get FRPs altogether. USF doesn't come until T3 and UKF can't spare the manpower unless they want to get overrun/skip out on bofors/skip out on mortar pit/AT gun/sniper until they can recover that 500 or so manpower.
Put Major in T1 and let's see how much Axis cries then. Make the Major a buildable statue with the HP of a OKW FHQ. I'm sure there will be a lot of unhappy Axis players. As many other players/posters have stated, there's little punishment for retreating and there's no reward for a good play who forced that retreat. |
(Sorry if i dont quote your whole text, dont take it as a cherrypicking i just want to refer to something)
I fail to see how you can get your MP back, what is spend is lost. At equal ressource generation, youll have 1 less squad than your opponent. I find that huge. Makes you bleed and use that FRP more than you want to. The very few times i make the upgrade on a okw truck, i dont want to use it, it is a security net. I prefer retreat-walking and have an additional volkgrenadier.
To be fair, i d'ilke to see at least five replays where there was a FRP, it was uncounterable, uncoutered and was the obvious reason of the unevitable victory (no stuka army-whipe involved equal tactics and talent).
Kozo.
Lower pop cap means higher resource generation which is why they had to hotfix volks from 5 pop to 7 because more can be maintained and higher resource generation to replace those lost.
Building a squad takes up pop cap and makes you bleed. Think long term. I have 1 less squad so i will take a defensive stance and send units to "test the waters" to see where are the strong and weak points in opponent's defense. I can immediately assault that point after a nearby retreat. Causing that unit to retreat is good enough because he now has to go all the way back to base before coming back to the front in which I have gained a strategic advantage if I choose to stay in that area.
Risk versus reward side. If I am SOV/UKF and I want to assault the FRP, I have to take a huge risk. Send in my MGs and a anti-tank gun. If I lose those in the assault, they now transfer to the OKW army which lacks a doctrinal MG and long range AT platform. When OKW loses in an assault, they just need to retreat unscathed unless you left it to the point you would get squad wiped. The risk of an Allied assault is higher than the reward that's unlikely to be achieved. The risk that OKW takes when he pushes is very low but the reward can be very high. As SOV, you'd have to retreat at least one squad to continue base building. UKF simply doesn't have the capability early game to push a FHQ and destroy it.
I'm sorry but I don't have any replays for you because I don't watch them and I rarely if ever save mine.
Anyways, the point of this thread is FRP and I would rather NOT see any FRPs.
If what you say is true that you would rather soft retreat to a forward REINFORCE point, then you should be all in on removal of forward retreat points. Forward reinforce points will still be there. |
You're not ABLE to dictate the game as Wehr. There's nothing written by Relic about Wehr not being supposed to dictate the pace of the game. You made that info up as you often do in your 1000's of biased posts. 7600+ posts. How many of them call for a nerf to allies? What's your estimate? 1%?
Having to build 2 AT guns just-in-case of light vehicles when what you really need is AI to stop the hordes of infantry is punishing. If you complain about the Luchs vs the Brits but not about the t70 and US light vehicles vs Wehr - that's bias.
You don't know enough about this game to say which faction should be dictating pace or indeed if any should. Drop the self-assured tone. You haven't earned it.
Dude really? you're going to call someone out on playing Allies but most of all of your games are Axis... talk about hypocrisy
why would you build 2 AT guns for 1 light vehicle? 1 well place one is more than enough. 2 is instant kill.
Let's see T70 requires T1/T2 40/50 fuel then T3 is 85? Then T70 is 70 fuel? Assuming I am right on those numbers... that's a minimum 195 fuel with no side upgrades. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Luchs requires mechanized HQ (50 fuel) and to build luchs (65 fuel)... total of 115
Can you now tell me what you're comparing? A T2 tank versus a T3 tank that costs almost twice the price and longer timing...
If anything I will call you out on bias. |
And do the same with all units and the rename the game from COH2 to Age of Empires II...
Actually if you where paying more attention you would had notice that there are thread about the weffer...
It doesn't matter whether there's a thread or not. The POINT is that a lot of players just want to nerf something without logical reasoning. They do not make comparisons and state only information that is convenient for the sake of his/her argument.
You also have NOT said anything productive nor presented any type of solution.
You don't want units to be the same as you JUST stated. Then you can also leave calliope alone because it's different. All you want is to nerf the calliope and leave the other rocket artillery alone. Fair? No, I think not. |
USF doesn't have way to reliably hold a territory with HMG and ATguns.
-OKW because their HMG is doctrinal and has nothing to do with the HMG42
-USF because you have to chose between HMG and ATgun. Do you remember smoke and flank? Ostheer just need to riflenade your HMG.
Both faction has little tools to keep a territory from a push. many time it result in a retreat + come back and this is why they have FRP. Because if they don't push they simply lose the game. They do not have the M3 or the sniper Sov has able to quickly circle or snipe from far away + cons hourra/molotov in t1 and Maxim + Zis + mortar in T2.
I admit OKW is tricky actually since they overperform but USF major comes at the same time OStheer is clearly able to push you hard, and not having the major retreat point will be more than an issue in many maps.
Now, Soft Retreat is something anybody know how to do at a certain level but you cannot soft retreat vs 3 gren/mg42 or 2 shock squads closing the gap on you.
I'm not saying FRP must stay like it is but removing unilateraly the option will set OKW and USF on the backfoot.
I have proposed some ideas to reduce the effectiveness: Increase reinforcement time x2 on FRP or disable healing when reinforcing. Some other can be find as well.
Uhhh, yes they do.
USF can build bunkers whatever they're called if you opt for no MGs. Stuart can hold against AI infantry. AA track can suppress and hold off light vehicles. M20 can flank and scout and cap.
If you're approaching a defended position... 1 unit scout, 1 unit flank? Instead of 2 units run straight into support weapons and snipers?
Okw can build sandbags. Sturms can flank. LeIG can indirect. Kubel can backcap, cap cutoff points/decap. I have no idea how you're playing these factions but the best players micro at the beginning.
If the enemy has 3 grens/mg42 on you, then you should have at LEAST 3 riflemen. If they're closing on you and you're defending, use COVER. MG42 has to set up before suppression, you have reduced damage and suppression behind cover. you can flank the MG42 with your rear echelon/rifle whatever. Suppression weapons ARE MADE TO FORCE YOU TO HARD RETREAT it rewards players with good placement. If you sit there waiting for an MG to suppress your mobile infantry... that's your fault...
2 shocktroopers... that's 2 CP and you should be on T1 technically. Regardless that's 680 MP? 2 MGs can handle 2 shocks. 3 MGs is a guarantee. layer them up and smoke can't even save them. 1 MG and 1 panzergren behind them will also do the job. Snipers to soften them up... there are SOO many counters.... FRP are not necessary. Do you see me? What is my USF rank? and i play team games in BIG BIG BIG 4s maps. I'm saying they aren't necessary. What's your counter? |
How about including tech cost? I mean in close games you wont call in more than 1 arty. Do the math how much 1 panzerwerfer costs and how much 1 calli costs :^)
What games are you talking about? 1v1? 2v2? 3v3+?
If I forsake T3 USF... I will effectively have NO mobile AT or armor on the field.
If I use all my fuel for T4 OST... I strategically open up oh... why Panther, and Panzerwerfer and the least used (brummbar). The most seen and used tank in late games... Panthers and the squadwiping Panzwerfer...
So from a strategy perspective, you'd be crippling your options skipping out on T3 USF and waiting for that 10 CP.
From a team game perspective, since i play big games, I played a 4v4 both AT. Close game... lost to panzerwerfer spam, stukas and rocket airstrike? whatever that global nuke ability is. And yes, it was a close game but I got squadwiped a lot more and my Katyusha would leave 1-2 models remaining before they retreated.
If you're talking 1v1, I have very little to no experience. If you want to walk that route it's like why is my Jackson M36 not stronger than a JT? JT is 280 fuel call in and Jackson requires T1 50 fuel, T3 120 fuel, Jackson 125 fuel. My Jackson costs 295 fuel but it's losing to a 280 fuel JT? They're both tank destroyers! Why? So no, do not bring in teching costs because this can go all day long. Katyusha is 85, Panzerwerfer is 85? Stuka is 100 because it also does pretty good vehicle damage. Calliope is 140... Make it's health weak as a Stuka then it also warrants a fuel decrease. |
Same logic, how did one letting OKW getting 5 Volks accumulating 1000+ MP, 450 muni and time and killing all his tanks and whine on forum?
How about play against a good Simcityer and STFU? 
We did play against a good Simictyer, inspite winning at the last moment, and learnt how difficult to crack a good Great Wall of British Simcity (3+ Mortar & 3+ Bofors). It is boring, rage inducing and not fun to play and play against, but it works.
LOL! Says the person with less than 40 games ask UKF. This is irrelevant and you're going on a tangent.
OKW 5 volks can be built at T0. It also has a forward retreat point. It serves to have map control early game and AT throughout the entire game. They are also RETREATABLE and reinforce-able, and MOBILE.
You're comparing it to a non-reinforceable (only repairable), non-retreatable, statis (non-mobile) position.
Great comparison... i think someone should learn to STFU and make legit comparisons. Get to top 10 with random players or 1v1 ranks and I'll actually respect your opinion. 3+ mortar 3+ bofors... lol, this is ludicrous. Must be Axis camping all day and letting UKF build positions non-stop. BTW, UKF has the LOWEST win rate in team games. GG and QQ more Axis fanboi. Since... you exclusively play Axis... I don't |
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