Yea, that's why my complaint was about two things, RE costs and the rifleman rate of fire cooldown penalty on move. Like I said, Rifleman semi automatic rifles for no reason have the moving cooldown penalty as high as bolt action rifles, rifleman M1 garand have 1,25 and Volks/Grens kar98 have 1,5, while all others semi automatic rifles(Penals SVTs and g43s) have 0,5.
In this fall patch, penals are being nerfed to 0,75, which still way better than rifleman 1,25 moving cooldown penalty.
The Cool-down multipliers do not affect DPS linearly as accuracy does.
If you compared the DPS ratio of the (Garand moving)/Garand of the riflemen at close range you will see that is similar to (SVT moving)/SVT ratio (currently in live).
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M4A2 Sherman Firefly
• 17 pounder accuracy from 0.08/0.07/0.05 to 0.055/0.045/0.4(!) typo probably meant 0.04
• Moving accuracy from 0.75 to 0.5
• Tulips no longer cancels move commands upon stun.
Tulips now deal 33% damage versus infantry.
the effect is chance to damage:
| sherman_firefly_76mm_mp | 1,76 | 1,71 | 1,66 | 1,61 | 1,56 | 1,39 | 1,10 |
| sherman_firefly_76mm_mp | 1,33 | 1,28 | 1,22 | 1,17 | 1,12 | 1,09 | 0,97 |
and the effect in DPS (tullips no included here):
| sherman_firefly_76mm_mp | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 |
| sherman_firefly_76mm_mp patch | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 18,77 |
Note that the changes have almost no affect in chance to damage when unit stationary due to x1.1 accuracy from commander and the long range of "mid range". The unit still piratically has around 100% to damage a medium tank at range 60 when stationary. The vet 3 accuracy buff also has almost no effect in the units performance when stationary.
Changes mostly affect the accuracy on move. |
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Accuracy change seems in the right direction but the vet 2 accuracy buff negates most of its impact.
Either lower accuracy a bit more or replace accuracy bonus with a penetration bonus.
In addition since the unit become more durable one should consider lowering mobility since only the Panther can keep up with it. |
I didn't understand, Rifleman have 0,6 moving accuracy while Penals and the bolt action Grenadiers and volks (KAR98) have 0,5 moving accuracy penalty. So actually is way worse than you said.
there more factors that change for units that move, accuracy is only one of them.
Looking only at accuracy will not allow to know the DPS of unit on the move. Rate of fire is also affected by movement (that is shock PPsh are quite good on the move). |
I didn't only provide a suggestion, I provided an actual method, with a result. As usual, you only read what you want to read and ignore the rest.
No need to tell me my rights, that's borderline insulting.
Great feel free to share the conclusions you have come up with using your method. BB for now. |
On what criteria is it significantly lower? You observation is all arbitrary. I ran a standard unpaired t-test on the DPS data you provided. The test demonstrate that both live ap/ap patch and live gun/gun patch pairs differences are not statistically significant at all (P=0.8182, P=0.2903 [..]). All that can be concluded is that the Jackson unit has been re-purposed to be used for different ranges there are no significant buffs or nerfs to the unit itself.
Theorycrafting doesn't always work in your advantage but playing the game does help. You also completely ignored MrSmith's post about DPS and Tanks.
I don't like DPS calculations with tanks. I find it useless, as it totally screws the dynamic of tank-to-tank engagement. Long winded discussions with tons of numbers doesn't help balanced gameplay either.
You have the right to like or not like DPS.
If you actually have a suggestion on how to compared prepatch and patched units feel free to do so.
(The dropoff of DPS at range 60 is about 14% while a range 50 is down to 4% which around x350% lower. That is a significant difference). |
This a comparison of M36 before and after the patch vs PzIV with the DPS adjusted to number of hits:
Chance to hit and penetrate
| m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp | 1,32 | 1,06 | 1,03 | 1,10 | 0,92 | 0,84 | 0,88 |
| m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp patch | 1,32 | 1,25 | 1,17 | 1,10 | 0,95 | 0,81 | 0,66 |
| m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp | 1,10 | 1,06 | 1,03 | 0,99 | 0,92 | 0,84 | 0,77 |
| m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp patch | 1,32 | 1,25 | 1,17 | 1,10 | 0,95 | 0,81 | 0,66 |
DPS
| m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp | 29,27 | 29,27 | 29,27 | 29,27 | 29,27 | 27,91 | 25,76 |
| m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp patch | 29,27 | 29,27 | 29,27 | 29,27 | 27,91 | 23,61 | 19,32 |
| m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp | 21,69 | 21,69 | 21,69 | 21,48 | 19,89 | 18,30 | 16,71 |
| m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp patch | 21,69 | 21,69 | 21,69 | 21,69 | 20,68 | 17,50 | 14,32 |
Note that although the chance to hit/DPS has been lowered at range 60 by range 50 the difference is significantly lower and by range 45-40 the M36 now has better DPS with normal fire. |
this DPS taking into account the number of shot needed for a kill vs a medium tanks
| Name | 0 | .1 | 20 | 30 | 40 | 50 | 60 | 70 | 80 |
| elefant_88mm_gun_mp | 36,57 | 36,57 | 34,48 | 31,61 | 28,73 | 25,86 | 22,99 | 20,11 | -1 |
| panther_75mm_mp | 21,33 | 21,33 | 21,33 | 19,71 | 16,90 | 14,08 | -1 | -1 | -1 |
| stug_75mm_mp | 37,65 | 37,65 | 37,65 | 37,65 | 36,44 | 33,13 | -1 | -1 | -1 |
| jagdpanzer_iv_pak_42_75mm_mp | 32,00 | 32,00 | 32,00 | 32,00 | 32,00 | 30,51 | 28,16 | -1 | -1 |
| jagdtiger_pak_44_128mm_gun_mp | 36,36 | 36,36 | 36,36 | 36,36 | 36,36 | 36,36 | 36,36 | 34,82 | 32,94 |
| panther_kwk42_75mm_mp | 21,33 | 21,33 | 21,33 | 20,18 | 18,30 | 16,43 | -1,00 | -1,00 | -1,00 |
| m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp | 29,27 | 29,27 | 29,27 | 29,27 | 29,27 | 27,91 | 25,76 | -1,00 | -1,00 |
| m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp | 21,69 | 21,69 | 21,69 | 21,48 | 19,89 | 18,30 | 16,71 | -1,00 | -1,00 |
| sherman_firefly_76mm_mp | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | 19,39 | -1,00 | -1,00 |
| isu152_ml-20s_152mm_armor_piercing_mp | -1,00 | 20,82 | 20,82 | 20,79 | 19,03 | 17,26 | 15,50 | 13,74 | -1,00 |
| su76_76mm_zis-3sh_gun_mp | 24,96 | 24,96 | 22,88 | 20,59 | 18,30 | 16,02 | 13,73 | -1,00 | -1,00 |
| su76_76mm_zis-3sh_gun_mp vet2 | 29,94 | 29,94 | 29,94 | 29,94 | 28,54 | 24,98 | 21,41 | -1,00 | -1,00 |
| su85_d5t_85mm__mp | 28,32 | 28,32 | 28,32 | 28,04 | 27,00 | 25,96 | 24,92 | -1,00 | -1,00 |
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PIATs have to close in to enemy tanks to fire. If Tommy moving accuracy is garbage, the squad contributes no DPS whatsoever while they're moving.
This, effectively, makes anti-tank capabilities of Tommies even more useless than their reload penalties and slotted Enfields already do in the live version.
? Piat are meant to be used against vehicles, so equipping piat to Tommies turns them from AI to AT similar to PGs.
I don't see how does their ability to fire on infantry on the move affects their ability vs vehicles.
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I thought these were good changes because it allowed the Jackson to be more easily countered by ostheer which has no 60 range TDs in addition to making it less frustrating to use since it got a health buff and more accuracy (aka less RNG deoendance). It made it more predictable
and some of those changes are in good direction, increasing accuracy is simply not one of them.
TDs with long range and high penetration (that have around 100% change to penetrate vs meduim max range) should have low accuracy so that they can miss vs mediums. Elephant (and JT) have their effectiveness reduced vs mediums although they already less DPS than FF,Su-85,M36 (JP also is too accurate but the unit simply need a redesign) at range 60.
The accuracy of this unit should be similar to Elephant and the vet bonus accuracy removed (or moved at higher level) or their accuracy should go even lower so that they become effective vs mediums once they vet.
(panzer general is great game by the way) |
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Heartless Jäger 
