TDs vs mediums in Live and in numbers.

Since TDs are finally is scope in FBP I am providing some data on live TDs vs mediums so we can have a better picture of upcoming changes.

Notes:

For this data I used the ostheer PZIV with target size 22 and Armor 180 and the Cromwell with TS 22 Ar 160.

Armor is irrelevant in this case since all of following TDs can penetrate these mediums with 100% at all ranges.

Chances to hit are actually chance to score a "natural" hit and in game chances are higher depending in the vehicle is driving toward gun or not.

I have left value above 100% so that one can calculate moving chance to hit:

range	0.00	10.00	20.00	30.00	40.00	50	60	70	80	85
elefant_88mm_gun_mp	1.10	1.02	0.95	0.87	0.80	0.71	0.63	0.55	0.00	0.00
panther_75mm_mp	1.32	1.19	1.06	0.92	0.79	0.66	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00
stug_75mm_mp	1.32	1.23	1.14	1.06	0.97	0.88	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00
jagdpanzer_iv_pak_42_75mm_mp	1.32	1.25	1.17	1.10	1.03	0.95	0.88	0.00	0.00	0.00
jagdtiger_pak_44_128mm_gun_mp	1.32	1.27	1.22	1.16	1.11	1.06	1.01	0.96	0.91	0.88
panther_kwk42_75mm_mp	1.32	1.19	1.06	0.95	0.86	0.77	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00
m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp	1.32	1.25	1.17	1.10	1.03	0.95	0.88	0.00	0.00	0.00
m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp	1.10	1.06	1.03	0.99	0.92	0.84	0.77	0.00	0.00	0.00
sherman_firefly_76mm_mp	1.76	1.71	1.66	1.61	1.56	1.39	1.10	0.00	0.00	0.00
isu152_ml-20s_152mm_armor_piercing_mp	0.00	1.17	1.09	1.01	0.92	0.84	0.75	0.66	0.00	0.00
su76_76mm_zis-3sh_gun_mp	1.10	1.01	0.92	0.83	0.74	0.65	0.55	0.00	0.00	0.00
su85_d5t_85mm__mp	1.21	1.14	1.06	0.99	0.95	0.92	0.88	0.00	0.00	0.00

----------------------------------------------------------------------
DPS

Name	DPS(0)	DPS(10)	DPS(20)	DPS(30)	DPS(40)	DPS(50)	DPS(60)	DPS(70)	DPS(80)
elefant_88mm_gun_mp	36,57	36,57	34,48	31,61	28,73	25,86	22,99	20,11	-1
panther_75mm_mp	21,33	21,33	21,33	19,71	16,90	14,08	-1	-1	-1
stug_75mm_mp	37,65	37,65	37,65	37,65	36,44	33,13	-1	-1	-1
jagdpanzer_iv_pak_42_75mm_mp	32,00	32,00	32,00	32,00	32,00	30,51	28,16	-1	-1
jagdtiger_pak_44_128mm_gun_mp	36,36	36,36	36,36	36,36	36,36	36,36	36,36	34,82	32,94
panther_kwk42_75mm_mp	21,33	21,33	21,33	20,18	18,30	16,43	-1,00	-1	-1
m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp	32,92	32,92	32,92	32,92	32,92	31,39	28,97	-1	-1
m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp	27,12	27,12	27,12	26,85	24,86	22,87	20,88	-1	-1
sherman_firefly_76mm_mp	24,24	24,24	24,24	24,24	24,24	24,24	24,24	-1	-1
isu152_ml-20s_152mm_armor_piercing_mp	-1,00	23,41	23,41	23,38	21,40	19,42	17,43	15,45	-1
su76_76mm_zis-3sh_gun_mp	28,07	28,07	25,73	23,16	20,58	18,01	15,44	-1	-1
su76_76mm_zis-3sh_gun_mp vet2	32,75	32,75	32,75	32,75	31,22	27,32	23,42	-1	-1,00
su85_d5t_85mm__mp	28,32	28,32	28,32	28,04	27,00	25,96	24,92	-1	-1

(included Su-76 vet 2)

Things to note:
some units have very high mid range like:
Jagtiger at 42.5. firefly at 45!!!!, lowest mid range goes to Panthers and Stug.

Most units have a moving accuracy of 50% meaning one has to multiply chance to hit values x0.5, exception here being Firefly, m36 x0.75 OKW Panther at x0.65.

In addition to high accuracy of the firefly it also get x1.1 accuracy due to commander.

In addition the following vehicles get added accuracy via veterancy:

Su-85 x1.3 (vet2)

M36 x1.3 (vet2)

JT x1.3 (vet3)

Firefly x1.3(vet3)

These units have 100% to hit and penetrate mediums tanks at max range when they reach the respective vet level (actually firefly has to begin with).

Su-76 x1.3 (vet2)(reaches very fast due low XP value (850)/high value of targets (1510 for stug)).Su-76 get also X1.167 damage increasing far to mid dps by around x152%

Elephant x1.3(vet3)

Su-152 x1.2 (vet3)

Jp x1.15 (vet4)



Note that Panthers have the lowest DPS vs medium even lower than Su-76 which actually goes up near stug III levels when reaching vet 2 (about the same time Stug would reach vet1)

Note that Su-85, firefly and M36 AP have better DPS at range 60 than Elephant.

Note the high chance to hit for JT and JP.

Note that Elephant at range 40 has chance to hit comparable to chance to hit of the JT, JP ,Firefly ,M36, ISU-152 at range 60.

PS: cromwell (and most allied tanks) have 160 armour.

The data you provide are live-version data, right? Otherwise, I don't see how JT "DPS" is constant.

Note that Panthers have the lowest DPS vs medium even lower than Su-76 which actually goes up near stug III levels when reaching vet 2 (about the same time Stug would reach vet1)

Note also that Su-85, firefly and M36 AP have better DPS at range 60 than Elephant.

Note that theoretical DPS, especially that of units which provide damage output once every few seconds, is the perfect value to be balanced around... right? Who needs factors like armor, HP, veterancy, combined arms, range advantage, provided sight and timing anyways?

If you have something on your mind, feel free to tell us.

Note that theoretical DPS, especially that of units which provide damage output once every few seconds, is the perfect value to be balanced around... right? Who needs factors like armor, HP, veterancy, combined arms, range advantage, provided sight and timing anyways?

If you have something on your mind, feel free to tell us.

If you read the title you will see that this thread is about Tds vs medium. In this case their ability to hit and penetrate and the DPS of this units vs medium is very important in their ability to counter them.

Veterancy comment have been included.
(other will be included later on)

poor panther. a cheap unit like the su76 is much better in dps...

i dont get it why the panther has such low accuracy on the move and such low reload speed.

its not a tank hunter.---its a punching ball for AT and TDs

poor panther. a cheap unit like the su76 is much better in dps...

i dont get it why the panther has such low accuracy on the move and such low reload speed.

its not a tank hunter.---its a punching ball for AT and TDs

panther is not about dps, its about damage and penetration, if you want dps go stug or pziv

panther is not about dps, its about damage and penetration, if you want dps go stug or pziv

Panther has the same 160 damage which is lower than M36 and firefly's 200.

Panther has the same 160 damage which is lower than M36 and firefly's 200.

which is why they need to put in the panther buffs if ther guna nerf the stug even more.

hit and penetrate and the DPS of this units vs medium is very important in their ability to counter them.

Still IMO irrelevant as DPS doesn't translate well into tank vs tank combat as it might do with infantry.
In case of infantry, the sheer amount of models, HP and amount of bullets shot, makes DPS a somehow reliable stat source.

If you are accounting for ONLY 640HP mediums with those armor values, the model you should be looking at is Time to kill based of number of shots.

120dmg: only Su76. It takes 6 shots (80dmg overkill)
140dmg: only vet2 Su76. 5 shots (60dmg OK)
160: most sources. 4 shots (0d OK)
200: FF, Jackson, Command PV mark vehicle. 4 shots (140d OK)
240: Jackson AP, ISU. 3 shots (80d OK)
280: FF vet 3. 3 shots (200d OK)
320: Ele/JT. 2 shots (0d OK)

IB4 "but it doesn't take into account accuracy". That's true. But that ideal DPS doesn't work with vehicles as not all hits in most cases are natural ones due to scatter been a factor as well. You could factor accuracy as a max average non ideal scenario on which scatter hits doesn't occur and then you have a min-max situation.
Ex: Ele/Su76 at their max range respectively have only .55 acc which basically would double the amount of shots required (if we don't account scatter hits). On the other hand, JT has .88 (which puts it at an extra shot) or FF which won't miss.

Note:
-You are also missing M10 on that list.
-I mentioned C. PV mark vehicle cause for all that matters, is the same as using any other munition ability.

I rejoice to read that I am not the only one who thinks with number of shots instead of DPS for Tank combat. I thought I had it all wrong.

....
Still IMO irrelevant as DPS doesn't translate well into tank vs tank combat as it might do with infantry.
In case of infantry, the sheer amount of models, HP and amount of bullets shot, makes DPS a somehow reliable stat source.
....

Note:
-You are also missing M10 on that list.
-I mentioned C. PV mark vehicle cause for all that matters, is the same as using any other munition ability.

You can actually use DPS easily by adjusting damage and replacing it with plasmatic one it to the HP/number of Shots value. Will probably do it later on.

I have not include either Puma or M10 because I consider those "flanker" Tds that should be used differently (close flanking instead of sniping).

Factoring in scatter hit it rather difficult since it has allot to do with if the target is stationary or moving and the angle between direction of movement and direction of shot (less for perpendicular more for 0 angle).

DPS for tanks would only make sense if the state machine worked as follows:
1. Enemy spotted
2. Reload shot
3. Fire
4. Go to 2

Instead, it works like:
1. Enemy spotted
2. Fire
3. Reload
4. Go to 2

Basically, DPS completely ignores alpha damage, which is the most crucial part of the equation.

Moreover, DPS completely masks the effects of what happens when you increase the amount of tanks dealing damage. When you have 2 tanks opening up at once, the DPS doesn't simply just double; it goes even beyond that.

For instance, it takes an AT gun 4 shots to kill a T34. That means 3 reload cycles. If you put 2 AT guns on the work, that's still 4 shots, but that takes only one 1 reload cycle (that occurs in parallel between the 2 AT guns). That's 3 times faster, and a DPS calculation would completely ignore that.

Alpha damage is what allows Panther spam to be amazing despite the fact that singular Panthers are shit.

You can get away with DPS calculations for infantry, simply because the reload time is small, and the duration of combat is usually long (especially when cover is involved).

this DPS taking into account the number of shot needed for a kill vs a medium tanks

Name	0	.1	20	30	40	50	60	70	80
elefant_88mm_gun_mp	36,57	36,57	34,48	31,61	28,73	25,86	22,99	20,11	-1
panther_75mm_mp	21,33	21,33	21,33	19,71	16,90	14,08	-1	-1	-1
stug_75mm_mp	37,65	37,65	37,65	37,65	36,44	33,13	-1	-1	-1
jagdpanzer_iv_pak_42_75mm_mp	32,00	32,00	32,00	32,00	32,00	30,51	28,16	-1	-1
jagdtiger_pak_44_128mm_gun_mp	36,36	36,36	36,36	36,36	36,36	36,36	36,36	34,82	32,94
panther_kwk42_75mm_mp	21,33	21,33	21,33	20,18	18,30	16,43	-1,00	-1,00	-1,00
m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp	29,27	29,27	29,27	29,27	29,27	27,91	25,76	-1,00	-1,00
m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp	21,69	21,69	21,69	21,48	19,89	18,30	16,71	-1,00	-1,00
sherman_firefly_76mm_mp	19,39	19,39	19,39	19,39	19,39	19,39	19,39	-1,00	-1,00
isu152_ml-20s_152mm_armor_piercing_mp	-1,00	20,82	20,82	20,79	19,03	17,26	15,50	13,74	-1,00
su76_76mm_zis-3sh_gun_mp	24,96	24,96	22,88	20,59	18,30	16,02	13,73	-1,00	-1,00
su76_76mm_zis-3sh_gun_mp vet2	29,94	29,94	29,94	29,94	28,54	24,98	21,41	-1,00	-1,00
su85_d5t_85mm__mp	28,32	28,32	28,32	28,04	27,00	25,96	24,92	-1,00	-1,00

This a comparison of M36 before and after the patch vs PzIV with the DPS adjusted to number of hits:

Chance to hit and penetrate

m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp	1,32	1,06	1,03	1,10	0,92	0,84	0,88
m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp patch	1,32	1,25	1,17	1,10	0,95	0,81	0,66
m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp	1,10	1,06	1,03	0,99	0,92	0,84	0,77
m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp patch	1,32	1,25	1,17	1,10	0,95	0,81	0,66

DPS

m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp	29,27	29,27	29,27	29,27	29,27	27,91	25,76
m36_m4_90mm_ap_gun_mp patch	29,27	29,27	29,27	29,27	27,91	23,61	19,32
m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp	21,69	21,69	21,69	21,48	19,89	18,30	16,71
m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp patch	21,69	21,69	21,69	21,69	20,68	17,50	14,32

Note that although the chance to hit/DPS has been lowered at range 60 by range 50 the difference is significantly lower and by range 45-40 the M36 now has better DPS with normal fire.

This a comparison of M36 before and after the patch vs PzIV with the DPS adjusted to number of hits:

significantly lower

On what criteria is it significantly lower? You observation is all arbitrary. I ran a standard unpaired t-test on the DPS data you provided. The test demonstrate that both live ap/ap patch and live gun/gun patch pairs differences are not statistically significant at all (P=0.8182, P=0.2903 [..]). All that can be concluded is that the Jackson unit has been re-purposed to be used for different ranges there are no significant buffs or nerfs to the unit itself.

Theorycrafting doesn't always work in your advantage but playing the game does help. You also completely ignored MrSmith's post about DPS and Tanks.

I don't like DPS calculations with tanks. I find it useless, as it totally screws the dynamic of tank-to-tank engagement. Long winded discussions with tons of numbers doesn't help balanced gameplay either.

On what criteria is it significantly lower? You observation is all arbitrary. I ran a standard unpaired t-test on the DPS data you provided. The test demonstrate that both live ap/ap patch and live gun/gun patch pairs differences are not statistically significant at all (P=0.8182, P=0.2903 [..]). All that can be concluded is that the Jackson unit has been re-purposed to be used for different ranges there are no significant buffs or nerfs to the unit itself.

Theorycrafting doesn't always work in your advantage but playing the game does help. You also completely ignored MrSmith's post about DPS and Tanks.

I don't like DPS calculations with tanks. I find it useless, as it totally screws the dynamic of tank-to-tank engagement. Long winded discussions with tons of numbers doesn't help balanced gameplay either.

You have the right to like or not like DPS.

If you actually have a suggestion on how to compared prepatch and patched units feel free to do so.

(The dropoff of DPS at range 60 is about 14% while a range 50 is down to 4% which around x350% lower. That is a significant difference).

You have the right to like or not like DPS.

If you actually have a suggestion on how to compared prepatch and patched units feel free to do so.

I didn't only provide a suggestion, I provided an actual method, with a result. As usual, you only read what you want to read and ignore the rest.

No need to tell me my posting rights, that's borderline insulting.

I didn't only provide a suggestion, I provided an actual method, with a result. As usual, you only read what you want to read and ignore the rest.

No need to tell me my rights, that's borderline insulting.

Great feel free to share the conclusions you have come up with using your method. BB for now.

You can just go above and read the post and conclusion, with the name of the method, and some numbers. I gave a snippet of what I can help you with to achieve a statistical look at the numbers you provided. There's more you can do to that data than just looking at it and saying one it bigger than the other and calculating dubious percentages. Even others pointed out how your approach is not in synch with the game itself. No need tell stuck your fingers in your ears singing out loud at all. I feel you just want to incite others you disagree with to provocation.

Lol the Panther.