I don't disagree that the arming of UK was recognised as a de facto involvement in the war. But that isn't what I'm talking about; what I'm talking about is planning that should have happened long before the war started. The problem that Germany faced was cutting Britain off from its global network of supplies, which would necessarily require unrestricted warfare. This means deciding to sink American and other ships quite regardless of whether they are sympathetic to Britain. Submarine war did not start after Lend-Lease etc.; they were deployed by the BDU with sealed orders before the war began.
You're asking me to accept that Germany would have been able to kill US non-combatant citizens, and destroy US shipping, which is a strategic capacity, and reasonably expect that the US would do nothing about it. That's absurd.
The answer is yes, The Americans are a zealous people when it comes to defending their country but even they would recognize that sending ships filled with ammunition ,that you know is going to be used against the Germans, is going to provoke the Germans in attacking your ships. The war between Germany and the USA started only because of pearl harbour. At that point several thousand usa sailors met their death in the cold waters of the north sea.
But even so unrestricted submarine warfare wasn't the only option. They could have easily go for aerial supremacy and bomb the ports and industry or mine the ports. And if my focus was the British i would send the whermacht to north Africa. if they could capture the Egypt and Morocco the British empire would be cut in half while while having access to the oil of saudi araby.
And do not forget that British empire in 1941-2 was facing a 2 front war with the Japanese attacking their colonies.
"On 1 February 1917, Germany began unrestricted submarine warfare against all ships in the Atlantic bearing the American flag, both passenger and merchant ships. Two ships were sunk in February, and most American shipping companies held their ships in port. Besides the highly provocative war proposal to Mexico, the telegram also mentioned "ruthless employment of our submarines." Public opinion demanded action. Wilson had previously refused to assign US Navy crews and guns to the merchant ships. However, once the Zimmermann note was public, Wilson called for arming the merchant ships, but antiwar elements in the United States Senate blocked his proposal."
I would also suggest you read that part. their was a very strong antiwar movement in the america's during both world wars. |
I take your point array, and I don't really disagree in general terms. I acknowledge that Britain wobbled.
Where I disagree is that I don't think it was a practical possibility. Once Britain is involved, it becomes necessary to knock Britain out; and the only means to do that is unrestricted submarine war. And unrestricted submarine war was what brought the US into WW1. So the only potential German strategy to knock Britain out is the same one that is most likely to give Britain a new ally that can keep it in.
This is false. While the reputation of Germany took a hit their where plenty of people that realised that sending arms and equipment to the brits is going to provoke an attack.
This is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram
The real reason why the Americans joined the war in WW1.
Also the whole unrestricted submarine warfare is also false. at that point the uboats had sunk several thousand tonnage of American ships. its when hitler foolishly declared war against the usa after pearl harbour. And he didnt need to because Germany and Japan where in a defensive pact not
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I'm afraid you're not grasping the salient point. Germany can have as much industry as it likes, but without the raw materials to put through those industries, it's pretty much helpless.
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Correct but at the same time you are over blowing the situation by a rather huge margin. Germany still managed to wage war against the soviet union for 4 whole years. So raw resources where not the immediate problem and they could definitely could have sustained a war against Britain for a few years. Also keep in mind that in the absence of war against the soviet union the german/soviet trade pact would have in all likelihood continued.
Remember that Hitler invaded the soviet union because he wanted Germany to be resource autonomous.
He would be better of however if he just neutralised the British and opening the trade routes again |
I keep seeing logistics being brought up. It is definitely key to why Germany would NEVER have won the war. Operations management which goes in tandem with logistics but includes the cultural/industrial capacities of the combatants can help color the bleak picture that was Germany's fate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6xLMUifbxQ
I agree with what AvNY is trying to tell some of these wehraboos (I went through as similar phase with the American Civil War).
The American civil war is an extremely faulty comparison. You do not take into account of strength of concentration. if Philadelphia and new york where placed on the west coast and not the east coast i would bet hundred bucks the south would have won.
Nice vid btw. But if Britain had fallen the Americans would not be able to enter the ww2 at all leaving only the soviets. And the soviets would have lost the industrial battle sooner rather then later. |
Well, the U-boat campaign certainly could have brought the UK to it's knees, in theory. But they didn't have enough U-boats at the start of the war either. As for planes, well, I dunno about specifically Nazi incompetence; aircraft production climbed through-out the war too.
Increasing production to "several times" that of the UK? Seems unlikely to me.
At this point Germany controlled the bulk of the industrial assets of Europe. and Germany alone already had a higher industrial base then great Britain. Not to mention germany had a much shorter supply chain i that was not nearly as vulnerable.
have ever played command and conquer? the British vs Germany situation would be like this: they both have their bases next to one another but Germany has 8 barracks continually pumping out troops while the brits have only 2. the brits do have 10 other barracks spread out across the map. who is going to win?
Germans of course because of concentration of power.
Its the same reaspn why the Japanese gave British such an ass kicking |
This is, or was, the conventional view that arose during the war itself, and prevailed up until about the 80's; it's the view that is expressed in the movie Battle of Britain. However, more recent work has poured cold water on the idea.
Additionally, the corner had already been turned some time before the switch to the bombing of cities. German losses were climbing way past replacement rate, while British production of aircraft and crews was constantly ramping upward. Every German pilot who bailed out over England was lost, while every British pilot who bailed out was back in the air as soon as the next day. The Germans were also fighting at the very limit of fuel capacity, which limited the time they could spend fighting, and caused losses on the return trip. (Although they did have a really excellent air-sea rescue service.)
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The problem with that is simple to explain: nazi incompetence. The nazi's could have ramped up the production of aircraft several times that of the brits. also the British had very vulnerable shipping lanes and u boat activity combined with air superiority would have completely cut of Britain form from the rest of the world.
While it would not be decisive battle and more of a siege i believe the Germans could have brought Britain to heel within 6 months . Good thing hitler had other ideas,
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Even if Hitler had succeeded in beating RAF and launching an invasion of UK, I am sure that the Brits would have turned the Island into a Meat Grinder. It is completely different thing to beat the French, the Norwegians or the Belgians and occupy their country, than to conquer the Brits. Whatever they say, they are not so civilized or nice when it comes to warfare.
They would probably have killed every single German soldier who set their foot on British soil.
What makes you think that? the British inland is not particularly well suited for defence. the British morale was already low after france and the repeated attacks of the luftwaffe. the britisch army had taken a beating after dunkirk. If the Germans successfully managed to cross the channel they we would be the first in thousand years to do so. it would have been bone shattering blow to morale as a whole.
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It always had those aspects back when it was total crap.
The only thing they changed was the penetration. also the only thing they did for the stug after spending 2 years being useless was buffing the penetration |
Except for time of arrival and having a turret (being able to get behind AND shoot)
how is this an advantage compared to the su76 that can fully use its 60 range and is a lot more safer to use?
smoke, a good vet ability, actually GREAT vet ability that can be used to do everything from stun to wipe retreating squads
I still consider additional range penetration and free arty barrages a way better deal.
...also not in the same late game tier as a REAL (relative to the unit) tank destroyer.
It doesn't matter what you think. If its a LV hunter its badly overpriced with 2 222 or aec doing a way better job in pure cost efficiency. if its a medium tank hunter it simply has to little penetration. and i dont want a buff that will put it on par with other TD's because it does come earlier but i do expect it to be able to penetrate most medium tanks 66% of the time and not 40 % of the time it does now. |
Actually, I've noticed that I've kinda pulled that phrase out of context.
His point was valid (about unit diversity), but still doesn't explains why Puma should be more cost efficient.
Did you use the su76 before its buff? thee puma has the same problem |