I'm not sure this has been said yet or not. I'm at work so I couldn't read every post, but I wanted to share my thoughts.
I'm mostly playing OKW, and most people complain so much about them. You have to understand that each faction has its own strength and weakness.
OKW is limited early game with no reliable artillery or mg support, with powerful late game units
This plays right into the hands of Allies, as they are both effective at Early game "blobs" that OKW, and even Ostheer, have a very difficult time dealing with.
People want to complain about "op" units. Specifically the King Tiger, Jadgtiger, Volks+Shreks, and Obersoldalten(sp)
1)The King Tiger requires the OKW to build all THREE bases and the unit cost is 720 mp and 260 fuel. That's extremely expensive, and usually one doesn't hit the field until much later in the game. Which, I'm sorry Ally players, but if you don't have some form of AT by that point in the game then it's your own fault.
2)Jadgtiger is a OKW heavy tank call in. Which is also very expensive at (I forgot the mp) and 290 fuel! Again, most of the time when OKW players (even myself) calls one in, is we field no tanks before then. It takes a long time to acquire that much fuel with OKW.
3)Volks+Shreks is common answer to early Ally tanks. Albeit, it's not a very good answer honestly. Because upgrading the Volks only gives the squad 1 shrek, therefore the fire rate is very slow as compared to Pgrens equipped with Shreks. In most cases, a t34 and especially a Sherman using HE rounds will just obliterate Volk squads. So the complaint about them is something I don't understand. The only way they can take out tanks is having quite a few squads and having them all fire at once and then retreat as they most likely won't get another shot off.
4)Obersodalten are the OKW "elite" infantry. They are extremely powerful late game anti infantry units. Most allies complain how it is an overpowered unit. Well, honestly it should be. Soviets get Shock troops, USF can upgrade their riflemen with Bars and both are cheap and easily fielded when compared to Obers. In most cases, by the time you can get them out on the field is when tanks are starting to roll out (which is a counter as they have no AT capabilities). So, again they are fine exactly how they are.
I am by no means an "expert, or pro" just someone who has played this game since beta. I feel like the game is fairly balanced as it is to be honest. I know a lot will disagree with me on this. I do not mean this as an insult in any way, but how about instead of jumping on the forums complaining about how "op" a particular a faction is, try finding out why you getting beat by this faction. Even with the units I mentioned above, there are more than enough counters available to allies to effectively deal with them.
Trust me, there are times I rage when I play. Especially when I vs USF but I try to learn from what I did wrong. 9 times out of 10, if you lose its because you made a mistake. Don't get upset, even the best of us can't be perfect all the time. Just learn it and move on.
1) I played OKW and teching for KT while keeping a viable AT is not difficult at all. I would have at least 3 Volks squads with shreks and 2 Rakets alone and convert muni to fuel from my tech truck afterwards. I have seen many players spit out a KT at late mid game with this strategy alone (asuuming they don't build Panthers).
2) Jagdtiger, we have tons of threads on this: the simple answer is late game there are enough vetted 5 volks with shreks to deter any risky armor flanks.
3) HE rounds rely heavily on RNG for full squad wipes, other than that they are vulnerable to my 3 volks with shreks.
4) Obers wreck shocks and eat Rifilemen for breakfast. Yes you can have tanks by the time Obers are on the field, but with vetted shreks and okw armor alone nullifies this. Again, Obers have no hard soft counters, plus they are always in a blob or supported by shreks! |
it has nothing to do with the okw however more of the ostheer buffing the okw economy skyhigh thats is the problem in teamgames. in 1vs 1 they are fine.
The issue that most people have with the okw is that can produce units that can immediately affect the flow of the game if you are not prepared for that. how often i have soviet and usf players relying upon at soft counters to repel a luchs is often. but you need hardcounters to such an unit. its definitely available but most people choose to wait for call ins and that doesnt work.
same shit goes for the obers panthers and puma's. Obers can be countered if proper combined arms is utilised. most refuse to do so. people wish obers to pay for their upgrade. it a laughable concept. obers would become even more powerful then they already as and you are suddenly allowed to pump 2 resources into them instead of 1. the fact that only cost mp is a strength but also severely limits them. at best you can have between 2-3. if this suggestion was put through you would likely encounter 6-8 of them. But the fact is that obers have an impact and people complain about them. but this doesnt make obers op it shows often usf and soviet player do not prepare for them, and a single light vehicle is enough.
At the same time OKW is very resistant to cheese tactics that would instantly win you the game against the ost. sniper spam maxim spam m3 and m20 rush is difficult for the ost to counter.But not for the OKW.
Obers have almost no soft counters in the game. Even LMG equipped Paras get cut down by them, how about the MGs? Maxium and .50 get shredded from distance because of Ober's insane accuracy and DPS, while the models struggle to hop back on the gun (Snipers are extinct against OKW). Obers paying for LMG is the most SENSIBLE way of toning them down. Its ridiculous that I have to spend my micro time with Shermans to take out a single infantry squad while OKW has Panthers. The sherman itself gets raped by shreks if I want to use it against Obers.
I agree with OKW's T4 truck needs to have either increase fuel cost or slow build time. Nerfing the gun on that Flak truck is a must, medium armor alone receive substantial amount of damage. On the side note, I noticed how Allies lost air superiority because of OKW's T4 and base emplacements (more susceptible for the airplanes to crash like recon, strafe and marked) compare to OST planes are free to roam the skies unless player specifically builds AA (This is in team games specifically). |
It would be nice for an ability similar to British Recon Section from CoH1, but then you could spam pathfinder for how cheap they are, get 4 of them and one-shot Obersoldaten lol
It will be a VERY NICE pay back for all the pathfinders they have slaughtered till this day lol, still spending more MP to beat 1 squad tho. |
There are so many great posts in this thread. I think OP has hit on a number of issues but I also think other people have raised some excellent additional points. I wish Relic could go back to the drawing board and produce a new COH game now, although I think it too late.
For me the interesting thing I would add is that after just 1.5 years I am getting extremely tired of this game. I tend to play one game at a time and have found myself less and less interested in playing. I never had this feeling with COH1.
Relic please take note, you should identify what was good about COH1 and build that. Please do not take each individual problem on and create a solution by building a new unit (e.g., shreks should be purchased one at a time but should also not dominate tanks, also tank killing squads are too small. Relic solution: make volks 5 man, cheap, and buy a single expensive shrek).
I could play vCoh for hours switch back and forth between Allies and Axis, now only way to win is playing Axis (majority of the time). I haven't touched the game since two weeks, been playing other games while waiting for January patch. I am hopeful that minor changes will make the killing grounds equally fair on both Allies and Axis side. Amen lol. |
I do agree with Jinseual that Soviet faction is a big problem. Within the scope of Ost and USSR, the Soviets can work, albeit with the annoying call-in system.
It just seems like OKW is really dictating how the meta shifts and how players react to them even in-game. OKW can't really go wrong with placing med truck of mech truck first, although it is quite popular now to go med truck. They have solid or decent options at every building.
Changes will need to come, but in a way that causes the least issues. Right now, Ostheer is fairly balanced; They are a conventional faction with linear teching and power curve. It would be a shame if their gameplay gets disrupted due to changes with OKW.
I am fairly certain some significant changes like nerfs and buffs will be placed on OKW, but i don't know when
I don't see how adjusting OKW would impact Osth? I am pretty sure they could code OKW's shrek accuracy nerf without touching PGs per example. |
GIVE PATHFINDERS ASSASINATE ABILITY FROM AA CAMPAIGN PLEASE
Yea Pathfinders should have a "snipe" ability with either cool down or small muni price. |
On the contrary, it just highlights how much OST is getting screwed because of balance changes to make the Allies competitive with OKW teching. OKW are in position to pop Panthers for 120 fuel, get health care + the truly ridiculous armor-shredding flak for free, with almost no meaningful downside. OST has to spend 110 fuel just on the battle phase escalation, and AT LEAST another 25 fuel on T1 and T2, presuming they leave themselves wide open to enemy armor by skipping T3--which is, as things stand, the only realistic way to get Panthers before the 30 minute mark (if ever) in 1v1.
With the introduction of the WFA, I really enjoy playing Osth, it actually feels like a challenge and fair game (micro intensive) against US and Soviets. Aside from few tweaks, Ost would be more fun to play for challenge seeking players like myself who doesn't want auto win with OKW. |
OMFG this balance suggestion is so bad it has me in stitches. If you honestly believe that obers are going to cost 50 mp a piece when you take their lmg away then you have something coming. they will likely reduce the mp cost per ober to 35. your suggestion will reduce the immediate impact the obers have but at 25 min mark you are going to face 5-6 obers with lmg's and higher vet then normal because they suddenly cost cheaper.
Obers need that LMG purchase nerf BAD. Yes, we can offset this by decreasing reinforcement cost or decreasing reinforcement build time. I like Esxile's idea for munition dump for Obers, Falls and Jagers, okw would be more interesting to play. The player would have to chose between Shrek blob or Ober LMGs because right now, its almost impossible to fight this blob with anything. |
Something most cost efficient than volkshreck? what do you mean? fuel free P4 call-ins?
Let's look at OKW structure and commanders.
OKW lack of support weapons and suppression? no problem, Relic gave OKW 2 commanders with Mg36 really effective at low and medium level skills - less at high level but since you have better micro, you can go and play other commanders and use your micro with the Kubel. OKW now has the best early vehicle in game in hands of best players, it kills suppresses and is moving faster than anything else with super incredible vet bonus.
OKW lack of munition? no problem, let's give OKW cheap MP core infantry with incredible vet bonus and mid game elite infantry raping everything around moving on legs for the cost of 0 ammo (because Obers are definitively not late game units). At the end downgrade the munition starvation from 66% to 80%, letting OKW spam volkshreck into blob - the only OKW munition sink before end game. Incredibly effecting after two or three push/retreat to earn vet at low, mid and high skill level. This strat doesn't give Allied players any chance if they do not react perfectly in a matter of second to withdraw their tanks, something difficult at low and mid skill level. It is still effective at high level since it is only a-move base action, just bring in it your micro and it can become more deadly with a good focus fire and good usage of cover on your blob path.
OKW players lack of micro? Low to mid level skill? lack of understanding how to flank? No problem at all, Because one of your beloved commanders with MG36 has also Falls. Those falls are upgrade free with basic super strong AI weapons that can pop from any ambient building. There is also a tank in your path? No problem they also have a nice faust that always engine damage, perfect for your shreck blob.
They are MP expensive? Who cares since you only need to spam volks, cheap to build, cheap reinforce and You just need to pay for shreck. So just be a bit more careful to retreat faster your A-move push to save MP and the next one, push and pop your falls behind his line of fire. So much micro in this strat!
Or variante: A-move your blob and force him to concentrate his fire-power to counter you and use pop your falls anywhere else on the map to gain map control. Allied players will need to send at least 2 squads or a tank to counter you leaving you to push harder in the middle!
So what remains, fuel starvation? Since you do not need to spend more than 5 fuel for a early kubel push from the all early-mid game to stay competitive (except for your tiers dev), what is difficult to wait till a panther or a KT?
You have the upper hand, already T3 build and your opponent is struggled with your volks spam and must go T2 to counter you? It is almost GG, build a lunch and rape everything he has on the field. Be carefull because it requires a bit of micro, your foe could have unlock zooks or atnade. Too bad
He has the upper hand, just blob you volks with shreck to prevent his sherman/T34, only reliable units to push you mid game and wait for your panther to hit the field. During that time build obers or your call-ins falls/jaeger ammo free raping infantry unit. Just be careful of para, the only on-legs unit that can go toe to toe with your infantry at this stage of the game.
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OKW isn't a god faction and probably not the strongest in super high level, this is true. But Relic put so much effort to make sure every of it weakness is fairly balanced with commander abilities or unique game mechanisms such as forwarded trucks, commanders abilities to balance lack of support weapons, 3 commanders elite infantry popping up from ambient building ready to use, super T3 truck weapon that can cover 1/3 of many 1vs1 map and do damage until med tanks etc... that is just outrageous for Sov or USF that need to make strong choices on what strengths they need and what they leave appart from their strat.
The only OKW gap not covered is probably arty, but since OKW also has the fu-zuss... That's maybe the only real OKW gameplay decision making? Should I go arty first or panther...
+1 Agree with all the above! |
Soviet Industry with Kat spam is the only cheesy way of taking out OKW Shrek Ober blob! |