Obers do wreck snipers. Thats if u can get close enough as the sniper has more range and will no doubt target the obers first. I guess if the Soviet is dumb enough not to have spotters u could do this......
Obers take at least 8 mins to come out also.
Shocks + T1 only works if u can utilize T1 well at the start and dominate which isn't too hard. But its easily taken out by a couple of 222's or a couple of pumas.
I think you should play abit more before you comment anymore.
Holycow, you whant to add a spotter to that? how big with that blob become? Ok ok, i raise the bets and add... an Leih. That should screw their sniper. Do you raise or pass? |
this whole game is about counters... whether they be soft counters or hard counters, its still about countering. just like any RTS, knowing your opponents units and how to counter them is essential. that is strategy, so i have no idea what point youre trying to make by picking apart the idea of counters.
the coh franchise is different from other rts's in that things like positioning or suppression can make a huge difference in the outcome of battles, but that will only help so much. no amount of "strategy" will make a pioneer beat shocks on their own. the reason is, shocks hard counter pios. some units simply cannot beat other units.
anyways, back to the topic, theres a big difference between saying okw need a doctrinal unit to counter snipers. one, okw may not have that doctrine equipped and two, well placed buildings are essential for both of your doctrinal counters. no buildings make your JLI and fall surprises impossible.
the other difference is guards are a choice for the soviets. the soviet chooses t1 and guards and okw is forced to respond. the soviet is dictating the play, not the other way around.
if you go shocks with t1, i can see why you might think any vehicle is a counter to a sniper build. shocks and snipers both have the same strengths (AI) and weaknesses (AT). personally i love seeing t1 and shocks because its an incredibly short sighted and easy to counter build. im curious what your creative strategy to counter 222's is with that build.
Ahahah an interesting personal attack, i genuinly laugthed. Let's start dancing, but i won't use the same moves as you do.
In this case, artillerie would counter this as said earlier.
Flanking sturm pios.
blobs of volks (but keep them spreaded a bit to avoid grenades) if you like the frontal single unit assault.
Keeping the guards busy with an armored unit they can button while you move up. This one is very theorical.
Capping the rest of the map and dodging the blob to force it to spread and then pick it out one by one (this is an expensive, slow and low model count blob) divide and conquer!
Ubersoldaten LMG wreck the sniper in a second.
Find one that you like, they'll work in different situations. Try some other units combinations ... it's all really depending on the situation. No build "x" unit to beat it will get you very far, it's made of 2 long range and expensive AI units and one Doctrinal elite unit with small AT capabilities.
p.s. Yes i like T1 and shocks, i got tired of T2 and whanted to try something new. It's pretty fun to use but hard. The sniper is great to recon for the assault and pick off MGs while the M3 is good to flank MG if there is no gren around and keep alot of momentum. Get creative, and you might find some interesting combos and strats.
Edit: soviets have a very low adaptability especially if they are going T1. You were talking about being forced to react, well now force them to while they can't. |
no AT? guards always go with snipers unless the player is an idiot. button = dead flak track. i think a flak ht is the worst possible suggestion.
I was told doctrinal units were out of the equation for the OKW, but now you told me not for the Soviets? We are rewriting the rules here. I must be an idiot also to prefer shock troops.
You have a Senior Strategist badge, and you only swear by counters. Use your bloody head and make some strategie, there's more to this game than just "counter" it's not just rock paper scisor.
If we only go by counters will just keep throwing the counter of the last counter at the other's face. Each map will be different and so will each situation, use it to your advantage. I gave you a bunch of units that works, now it's up to you to make them work together.
here's an exemple of a generic plan:
If he is hording 800MP in the same spot i'd call in some artillerie and start cutting off his other points and probably flank him at some point. You adapt to the situation, and in this situation we have a very not so mobile and fragile blob. Flanking and dodging it are your best bets in this situation. You'll also have other units that will add up into the equation and so will he.
“No Battle Plan Survives Contact With the Enemy”
German military strategist Helmuth von Moltke
edit: after reading trough the forum, i think this mentality of "counter only" is what led to blobing (it's just a theory) but as Dane said in on of his latest cast : "all battles seems to revolve around blobing and this is getting boring" or something around those lines.
It's like everyone is trying to cram all the counters togethers to make sure to counter every other counter of the opposing team. |
If he goes rifle command that means he wont have either at guns or light armor. Exploit that. If he went 2 snipers, you should flat out, have more shit than he does, exploit that. If he went rifle command, you have map control and mobility, exploit that.
Instead of trying to only hard counter a unit, xploit its weaknesses or the weaknesses it comes with.
What this guy said. I was about to add it, no AT for him, rush Flaktrack or anything else armored you prefer. For the M3 you have the Racketen.
Why do you guys whant to have an easy win unit that would garante you a victory against his units? it's an RTS not rock paper cisor. Form a strategie with your units, you have a good selection. If he has 2 snipers you can vastly outnumber him with 3 volks squads. No way in hell he's getting trough that. If he runs away, you have over 600MP running away... PUSH.
The soviet sniper was built to be less of a good killing machine and thus make him a better recon and making him more resilient to fulfill this role. |
Why would a Sov Sniper ever decloak within range of a setup LMG?
Also, how does one burst kill both models?
How is that different, eh?`Its not different, its just stupid.
He meant the Ubersoldaten's LMG and he is right. Less than a second of a burst at their max range and they waste both sniper before you can blink. I know, i was pretty suprised when did it myself.
On topic: On the top of my head... Volks, Ubersoldaten (see above), that wierd mortar missile thingy, Kubel, Panzerfusilliers, Falls, JLI, flacktrack, ... |
3 seconds in combat to deactivate means it's useless.
Volksgrenadiers usually use their grenades defensively, so having a certain timer when they deactivate in combat would completely screw them over. You want to stay on long range. Even if you would want to use them on short range, 3 seconds is far too short to close in. Besides that, such timers are problematic for the gameplay. As Canadian you might've not noticed so much, but people not living in NA tend to have quite some delay simply due to distance. It seems the server decides when (and if) and ability activates - or at least it feels that way if you use ram (it gets used locally, you hear the sound and the ability triggers, but then half a second later or a second later it's over, no cooldown and in the replay no use if the ability pops up) or other range/time based abilities.
I pulled the 3 second our of my a*** it could by something else. The idea of the infiltration grenade was to give the volks some means on the assault as far as i can see (it's the infiltration tactics afterall). If they can still use it defensively it could make them imune to close combat which is their weakness (see my video).
The idea is to be able to use a cheap ability to give you an edge during an assault with a not-good-at-close-range unit mixed with sturm pios or other units like that. The requirement could make it rather cheap. Feel usefull for the partie using it to give himself an edge given certain conditions and a cheap price (you'd feel like you earned it!) and the other player wouldn't get wiped by a cheap ability on a cheap unit but rather being forced to pull-out.
For the lag, yes we can see it sometimes because it's server side. No one really got power over that. Dosen't sems like it but it's hard keeping 2 RTS games synched for a low bandwidth cost! |
@PTC:
Sturmpios already have a stun grenade on vet if I recall right (or was that one removed? ^^), so I think that would be a bit redundant as well. In general I think the ability can be completely reworked so no need to keep it a grenade assault or something like that. I'd take a mixture of smoke and (weak) explosive grenades as well. Less killpower, but great for advancing. The problem with such an approach is that OKW is always long ranged, but to take out a HMG or such I guess it could be useful 
I like the idea of smokes with explosives, i wonder how that would play out. Smokes usually aren't thrown at the same place as explosives. I know because i use shock troops alot. The smoke can be thrown earlier to close the gap while the explosive you will have to wait to be closer before using it. If you add smokes it also become more of a tool for a frontal assault than anything infiltration.
It's hard to not make this ability redundant with concusions and explosives while keeping a certain use and not turning the volks into close range killing machines.
@Marco It's vet3? that's pretty steep as you said. This could actually become the "infiltration" grenade a mix of concusions and weak explosives if used while not being in combat (like 3 second after entering combat it deactivate) |
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@MilkaCow
Thank you I like when you join in my post, you bring interesting numbers and discuss the subject of the topic.
I'd say the biggest problem with OKW's grenade assault and the Ostheer one is the unit using it and the price. On one hand you have a decent close range unit with a bigger price of 320? MP while on the other one we have a 235MP decent long range unit with 10MU ability that can wreck a shock troop assault with a single button. I saw people saying they would use this ability this way; make a couple of volks squad which are good for their price and transform these very cheap line unit into a close range killing machine when you see an elite unit worth your 10MU.
This is the difference IMO between the 2.
As for your suggestion, it could work with salvages but as far as i know these are rare. Making it an ability with very rare uses. Tough it's an interesting take on it.
Since they already have the normal grenade, why not make infiltration grenades a more supportive skill? More readily avaible, cheap that could soften up the unit being assault and stun them for a little while with the sheer amount of explosions. It could also be as the description says, if they enter combat (say 3 seconds after entering combat) the skill deactivate (does not reset). This would make a more constant ability that stays cheap but won't wipe squads. To kill something you would use the normal grenade that they also carry.
Now don't take the suggestion as is, it's a template. |
They only become lethal at close range if you fail to dodge the grenade. All of your tests and your video showing how effective the grenades were is only because you stood right in the middle and let them hit you. You are given ample warning and time to dodge these grenades, and you yourself stated you were aware that they were throwing them but chose to ride them out. You talked earlier about how the models crawl around after the first explosion preventing you from dodging, but at that point you have already failed to dodge it.
It is fine for an ability to be powerful as long as it is easy to see and respond to, it effectively nullifies the abilities strength.
The moments the signs show up and the first detonation is at worst only sligthly longer than a normal grenade from tests. If MilkaCow is right in his numbers, the first explosion should actually be faster than a normal grenade. Making the "Easy to dodge compared to other grenades" null.
I never said i knew they were going to wipe me at such a close range trough a smoke. I said i knew they were there.
In the end, their pros pretty much nullify their cons. And turns the long range and cheap volks into deadly close range units. |
Just another example of widespread bias on this board. If an allied commander was throwing hand-held carpet bombs, people would be up in arms. So far the only allied units that haven't been dubbed "overperforming" (annoying buzzword you people keep using) are dogshit units like conscripts, M-20 and the SU-76.
Well i hate to say it but when the katyusha dropped it's AP rockets for HE, the forum bursted into flame. It didn't take any argumentation to have it nerf hammered. While on the other hand i saw a really good and calm argumentation on why Russians have an horrible tier system, the topic hardly took off.
One side has to provide some pretty good evidence while on the on other one a simple whine thread seems to suffice at the slightess "overperforming" unit, even if this unit is really good at a single thing.
But can we put that aside and go back to the subject please?
Making this ability fun for both parties? Like dropping the cooldown for something else?
1 minute of out combat + price increase to maybe 20/25MU + less damage over the AOE? or an even smaller cooldown. Something along those lines. But we have to keep in mind that this ability can make the cheap good at long range volks become lethal close range units.
Edit: the CP cost could probably be brought to 1 or 2 depending on the final package. |
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