Infiltration grenades working as intended?

At the northern VP in ettelbruck station there are 3 medium-sized apartments, I had a garrisoned 6 man maxim team brought down to 1 man with maybe 5% hp left, and he died right after the barrage to small arms fire from one volks squad.

10 munitions was too little even before the munition revamp of OKW. It might as well not even have a cost to it now.

Just another example of widespread bias on this board. If an allied commander was throwing hand-held carpet bombs, people would be up in arms. So far the only allied units that haven't been dubbed "overperforming" (annoying buzzword you people keep using) are dogshit units like conscripts, M-20 and the SU-76.

Their is no excuse of losing a maxim squad to grenades since it has the shortest packup time. like many soviet players you simply expect that the maxim can soak the damage and got a nasty surprise. to be honest i would be suprised if relic is not going to change the maxim from 6 man to 4 man to reduce the viability of maxim spam.

With the way these forums and ingame population are, I wouldn't be surprised either.

to be honest i would be suprised if relic is not going to change the maxim from 6 man to 4 man to reduce the viability of maxim spam.

especially since they already made a public post saying theyre considering it...

With the way these forums and ingame population are, I wouldn't be surprised either.

haha your posts dont exactly come off as non biased either.

The moments the signs show up and the first detonation is at worst only sligthly longer than a normal grenade from tests. If MilkaCow is right in his numbers, the first explosion should actually be faster than a normal grenade. Making the "Easy to dodge compared to other grenades" null.

I compared them to the MK2, since that would be somewhat an American equivalent. Those numbers are the times that the grenades need to be thrown. The total ability time is longer as I stated earlier since all models need to move in range instead of just one. It has more telltale signs than normal grenades and it is more random - if you are lucky you get a good spread that hits well, sometimes those grenades deal barely any damage even though they hit straight on target.

Compared to their standard Stielhandgranate (The 30? munition one from Volks) they are equally fast or slower on the animation, but once again only one model has to throw the grenade in this case. I wouldn't consider their strength to be a problem, else people would use them frequently with assault grenadiers as well. It's just the fact that they are more cost-efficient to use as OKW due to the fact they cost only 10 instead of 45 munitions. Both factions only have access to them via doctrines. They are definitely easier to dodge than the normal Volks grenade as it's easier to see their animation and even if you get hit by one it's usually less devastating. Only getting hit by multiple grenades will be really dangerous.

Making this ability fun for both parties? Like dropping the cooldown for something else?

1 minute of out combat + price increase to maybe 20/25MU + less damage over the AOE? or an even smaller cooldown. Something along those lines. But we have to keep in mind that this ability can make the cheap good at long range volks become lethal close range units.

Edit: the CP cost could probably be brought to 1 or 2 depending on the final package.

Might make it more balanced, but I think that would to a great degree also destroy their uniqueness. Right now they are a rare use, high potency ability. The munition increase would water down their cost effectiveness (most likely to the point where they are simply a higher risk, higher reward version of the Stielhandgranate) and the 60 second cooldown would make them be available rather often. I'd rather keep them strong, but somehow tweak the trigger that enables the use to something harder to achieve. See earlier suggestions.

Anyways regarding some posters, could you please discuss the actual grenades / ability and possible ways to change them instead of trying to make others look bad? This is not a political discussion in which you win by destroying the credibility of other people. Going down that road will just cause the thread to turn into a garbage bin with no useful creative process happening. The balance team as well as several people in the balance Alpha are reading those forums and if there are good suggestions they will get discussed. In the recent times there were a few posts linking to CoH2.org threads, but it's still rare due to the high amount of 'noise' (let's call it that to be non toxic ).

@MilkaCow
Thank you I like when you join in my post, you bring interesting numbers and discuss the subject of the topic.

I'd say the biggest problem with OKW's grenade assault and the Ostheer one is the unit using it and the price. On one hand you have a decent close range unit with a bigger price of 320? MP while on the other one we have a 235MP decent long range unit with 10MU ability that can wreck a shock troop assault with a single button. I saw people saying they would use this ability this way; make a couple of volks squad which are good for their price and transform these very cheap line unit into a close range killing machine when you see an elite unit worth your 10MU.
This is the difference IMO between the 2.

As for your suggestion, it could work with salvages but as far as i know these are rare. Making it an ability with very rare uses. Tough it's an interesting take on it.

Since they already have the normal grenade, why not make infiltration grenades a more supportive skill? More readily avaible, cheap that could soften up the unit being assault and stun them for a little while with the sheer amount of explosions. It could also be as the description says, if they enter combat (say 3 seconds after entering combat) the skill deactivate (does not reset). This would make a more constant ability that stays cheap but won't wipe squads. To kill something you would use the normal grenade that they also carry.

Now don't take the suggestion as is, it's a template.

@PTC:

Sturmpios already have a stun grenade on vet if I recall right (or was that one removed? ^^), so I think that would be a bit redundant as well. In general I think the ability can be completely reworked so no need to keep it a grenade assault or something like that. I'd take a mixture of smoke and (weak) explosive grenades as well. Less killpower, but great for advancing. The problem with such an approach is that OKW is always long ranged, but to take out a HMG or such I guess it could be useful

Nope, it's still there, though the vet 3 requirement is a bit steep IMO... but fair enough.

@PTC:

Sturmpios already have a stun grenade on vet if I recall right (or was that one removed? ^^), so I think that would be a bit redundant as well. In general I think the ability can be completely reworked so no need to keep it a grenade assault or something like that. I'd take a mixture of smoke and (weak) explosive grenades as well. Less killpower, but great for advancing. The problem with such an approach is that OKW is always long ranged, but to take out a HMG or such I guess it could be useful

I like the idea of smokes with explosives, i wonder how that would play out. Smokes usually aren't thrown at the same place as explosives. I know because i use shock troops alot. The smoke can be thrown earlier to close the gap while the explosive you will have to wait to be closer before using it. If you add smokes it also become more of a tool for a frontal assault than anything infiltration.

It's hard to not make this ability redundant with concusions and explosives while keeping a certain use and not turning the volks into close range killing machines.

@Marco It's vet3? that's pretty steep as you said. This could actually become the "infiltration" grenade a mix of concusions and weak explosives if used while not being in combat (like 3 second after entering combat it deactivate)

3 seconds in combat to deactivate means it's useless.

Volksgrenadiers usually use their grenades defensively, so having a certain timer when they deactivate in combat would completely screw them over. You want to stay on long range. Even if you would want to use them on short range, 3 seconds is far too short to close in. Besides that, such timers are problematic for the gameplay. As Canadian you might've not noticed so much, but people not living in NA tend to have quite some delay simply due to distance. It seems the server decides when (and if) and ability activates - or at least it feels that way if you use ram (it gets used locally, you hear the sound and the ability triggers, but then half a second later or a second later it's over, no cooldown and in the replay no use if the ability pops up) or other range/time based abilities.

3 seconds in combat to deactivate means it's useless.

Volksgrenadiers usually use their grenades defensively, so having a certain timer when they deactivate in combat would completely screw them over. You want to stay on long range. Even if you would want to use them on short range, 3 seconds is far too short to close in. Besides that, such timers are problematic for the gameplay. As Canadian you might've not noticed so much, but people not living in NA tend to have quite some delay simply due to distance. It seems the server decides when (and if) and ability activates - or at least it feels that way if you use ram (it gets used locally, you hear the sound and the ability triggers, but then half a second later or a second later it's over, no cooldown and in the replay no use if the ability pops up) or other range/time based abilities.

I pulled the 3 second our of my a*** it could by something else. The idea of the infiltration grenade was to give the volks some means on the assault as far as i can see (it's the infiltration tactics afterall). If they can still use it defensively it could make them imune to close combat which is their weakness (see my video).

The idea is to be able to use a cheap ability to give you an edge during an assault with a not-good-at-close-range unit mixed with sturm pios or other units like that. The requirement could make it rather cheap. Feel usefull for the partie using it to give himself an edge given certain conditions and a cheap price (you'd feel like you earned it!) and the other player wouldn't get wiped by a cheap ability on a cheap unit but rather being forced to pull-out.

For the lag, yes we can see it sometimes because it's server side. No one really got power over that. Dosen't sems like it but it's hard keeping 2 RTS games synched for a low bandwidth cost!

at the very most it needs a price increase. its not overpowered. double bar blobs whipe squads faster than these grenades really.

Now that the OKw has the normal muni income this ability's price should go up a bit as it is very powerfull.

I dont understand what the problem is? This guy failed to react to nades, period! Doesnt matter if it was infiltration or normal nades, he didnt move his shocks, in his mind "Ah 3 volks, ill charge them with my shocks, easy!" and got burned, end of story.............

The infiltration grenades have a high potential to do a lot of damage to the enemy. But they are no guarantee to wipe an entire squad, they have a high rng factor. They have a long cooldown and sometimes nothing happens to the enemy. They are especially strong versus blobs and if you are blobbing it's just fair to loose some units to those grenades. I think the idea behind those nades was to give the volsgrenadiers some offencive power, because unlike other units volks have no anti infantry damage upgrade. And if you fail to dodge those very obvious grenades it's not a matter of op or not it's a matter of skill and paying attention to your units. And if you think they are able to destroy shocks in close combat you should know that shocks destroy volks in close combat within 5 seconds.

The infiltration grenades have a high potential to do a lot of damage to the enemy. But they are no guarantee to wipe an entire squad, they have a high rng factor. They have a long cooldown and sometimes nothing happens to the enemy. They are especially strong versus blobs and if you are blobbing it's just fair to loose some units to those grenades. I think the idea behind those nades was to give the volsgrenadiers some offencive power, because unlike other units volks have no anti infantry damage upgrade. And if you fail to dodge those very obvious grenades it's not a matter of op or not it's a matter of skill and paying attention to your units. And if you think they are able to destroy shocks in close combat you should know that shocks destroy volks in close combat within 5 seconds.

And yet ? Wy the Volks should get so much power against a special unit in close combat?? Thats simply not balanced.

And yet ? Wy the Volks should get so much power against a special unit in close combat?? Thats simply not balanced.

Pretty much the point, a cheap long range unit that can route/criple/wipe a specialisaed squad in close combat for 10MU dosen't seems too fair. Sure there is a big timer but the volks come in bulks and often backline. If they do so, they got a free get out of jail card in case of an assault.

If we could fix it to make it something like what was discussed earlier with MilkaCow and also continue that dicussion.

Not sure if anybody pointed that out yet , but OP you describe the out of combat mechanic wrong . They have to be out of combat for like 2 minutes for the ability to recharge , once it gets unlocked you can use it whenever you want , also its instantly ready when you pick the doc / it gets unlocked the first time

Not sure if anybody pointed that out yet , but OP you describe the out of combat mechanic wrong . They have to be out of combat for like 2 minutes for the ability to recharge , once it gets unlocked you can use it whenever you want , also its instantly ready when you pick the doc / it gets unlocked the first time

I didn't update the part where i said i don't know what triggers the out of combat. Now it's updated.

edit: also edited the suggestion section. any other suggestions should be added there.

I didn't update the part where i said i don't know what triggers the out of combat. Now it's updated.

edit: also edited the suggestion section. any other suggestions should be added there.

yea you never have actually used them against a human in a real match have you? you have only had them thrown at you? right?

yea you never have actually used them against a human in a real match have you? you have only had them thrown at you? right?

I don't have enough time to dedicate to try out a single thing as you think i have. I did quick tests against bots in cheat commands to try out different scenarios and you can read the conclusions. It pretty much end up like in the video. There are some wierd RNG sometimes where even if the grenade in underneat an enemy it does nothing but it's part of the suggestions. MilkaCow brought some good facts about them too and you said yourself the price was too low. But after discussing with MilkaCow, we tough it could be fixed better trough some other ways, go read the suggestion section of the OP.

I'll link you to comment from people who are using them or seems to:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/21674/infiltration-grenades-working-as-intended/post/194184
http://www.coh2.org/topic/21674/infiltration-grenades-working-as-intended/post/194226
http://www.coh2.org/topic/21570/volksgrenadiers/post/194523