Take a look at my playercard if you think I'm a faction fanboy.
2 Gren, 2 PGren + Pioneer = (100 (T1) + 200 (T2) + 240*2 + 340*2) = 1460 MP
3 Ostruppen + 2 PGren + Pioneer = (200*3 + 200 + 340*2) = 1380 MP
4 Infantry Section + 1 Universal Carrier + 1 Vickers MG = (260*2 + 280*3) = 1360 MP
UKF starts with a combat capable unit and isn't spending 300 MP on teching straight away, which gives them a strong manpower advantage. I honestly don't think it'd be that different from the Volks vs Penals dynamic: Penals win 1v1, Volks have the numbers advantage.
You have to take UKF Tech as well in account into the calculation to have the equal amount of manpower used for a similar force on the field and tiering. That 180 manpower more for UFK.
|
And Katitof, none of those early units can deal with the UC or MGs outside flanks and your idea requires a back-tech to T1 so there is cost and time involved there. If Sturms and Volks cannot take on a UC in the first 2-3 minutes of the game, I doubt stock PGs would either as you need snares to be effective versus a well-microed one until AT or 222s hit the field. I don't see fanboyism in the post.
I thought Ostruppen didn't need anymore T1 to get pfaust. |
You are entitled to your opinion but 6 buff including cheaper AND more DPS is usually a bad approach. Add the new tech tree and it makes even worse.
In the end of the day it was unnecessary since the tech change alone was enough to provide new reason to built it and one could simply see how that goes and adjust.
The m20 was used 1vs1 allot for many years and after the patch it used even more in the tournament with devastating result. It would probably see even more action if the WC51 was not so OP.
Now we have established that M20 has been buffed, so we can simply move on.
Nobody said the M20 hasn't been buffed, I simply mentioned that it comes later than before. The M20 has been buffed and those buffs were required to keep the unit being something else than a counter for sniper on wheel.
I don't see the M20 being too good at the moment, usual OKW and Ostheer counters are still properly working vs it. |
I think a fuel increase for the m20 is needed to compensate for the cheaper Lt. The cheaper officers was meant to reduce the cost of unlocking at guns and mgs, not getting vehicles faster.
Do you have the old values and new one, my understanding is that the M20 actually comes later. |
Officers are some times unwanted units by moving to the "vehicles" unlock one cant still get the basic HMG/ATG without the officer. One could also get faster access to these weapons.
Actually I like this idea. worth a try. |
You are taking only okw to the equation, while usf outfields ostheer too. It doesnt matter too much if you outfield the enemy if everyone rushes 50 cals. The only problem I find with USF vs OKW matchup is the disparity between the sturmpioneers and the enemy squads, which is not that big compared to the one with soviets and combat engineers. All other factions have to pay for tech but they dont get a squad with it, hence, its free. If officers stop being free probably sturmpioneers should get some nerfs too.
Relic didn't removed them when they refreshed USF tech, can't see any new opportunity to do it now. You also have to take in account smoke nade that have been given to officers to mitigate riflesquad powerness, having smoke nade only on RE or units you need to purchase is quite a huge additional side nerf.
Supervision becomes also quite useless if you need to purchase the captain to use it.
Y don't see USF outfielding Ostheer when Gren cost 40mp less than rifles, usual Ostheer strat is going 1xHmG + 4xGren early game, vs 3xRM + 1 officer and then .50. Now, removing the free officer will upset even more the OKW's manpower advantage they get early game over USF.
I've always been in favor of removing free officer but that's should be part of a biggest design overall that just "let's remove them and see" |
M20 needs to get toned down slighty, it got buffed while being made cheaper which is never a good combo. It´s a bit weird that the 223 costs as much as the M20 while being WAY worse in combat.
Riflemen are not even nearly as bad as people claim, apart from the first 5-10 minutes against OKW they are really good infantry with snare and cheap grenade access. Vet 3 double bar riflemen eat Axis mainline infantry for breakfast, not sure why people chose to ignore that. I would consider them pretty well balanced overall, same as Volks.
Ostheer's 221 super cheap price and good performance is one of the reason the M20 got this buff, you can't reasonably nerf the M20 when for a similar price at almost similar time you get something that fight better. OKW 223 also have the luxury to get raketen support which is not the case for the M20.
Losing the first 5-10 minutes vs OKW usually seal the game. Now if you ask about Oshteer, I think the matchup is much more balanced.
Where I'm agreeing with you is that putting the M20 and Stuart on the same tier brought back Strong LV play for the USF, Making the M8 1 CP cheaper and giving CP bonus to USF construction also help in that sense.
Ostheer and OKW can't anymore just outspam USF with volks and gren aiming to win the manpower war, the comeback of the M20 and such force them into building AT units. And I don't think it is bad or unbalanced. |
|
USF design is build around Riflemen squads but nowadays playing USF is about building the minimum of them and maximum of other units available from your doctrine.
As you mention it, USF today is about Pathfinders or AssEn, early WC51 or fast M20 into Stuart or M8. All of this supported by a minimum 2 HMG.50 and if required Captain/atg, then CavRifle, Paratroops or Rangers are completing the picture.
People have adapted to the lack of Riflemen value before getting them vet2 with 2 BARs. And you can see this from two different angles, or you're happy because of the variety of strategies it offers or your not because you don't see much of old predictable riflemen squad spam strats today.
But see the other part of the picture:
How are you supposed to beat JLI/volks with Obers with Riflemen squads? You bleed like hell and must invest a ton of munition into BARs. Well easy, you don't build much Riflemen and goes for LVs and other more dedicated squads less generalist.
How are you supposed to beat Ostruppen spam with riflemen only, same response as above, you bleed hard until you finally get BARs
How are you supposed to beat 5men gren squad strat: not with more riflemen
Sniper counter has been even more delayed so yeah here again you don't spam riflemen vs sniper
How to counter dual HMG start? not with more riflemen since they don't have smoke anymore
How to counter 221 start, not with riflemen that can't do shit before vet1
How vs dual Sturm start? not with more riflemen
How vs 4 volks start, not with more riflemen since you'll lose the mp war.
How to counter Gren spam, not with more riflemen but Lvs and HMGs
etc...
Riflemen squad has reached the point of being the weakest point of USF design. From being a squad with strengthen and weakness all the game long, we went to a squad that's mostly weak until you invest a lot of munition on it. It was balance when USF had the upper hand early game but not anymore vs OKW dominating the 5 first minutes and Ostheer brought to equal level with more variety.
And don't blame only the balance team for this, everybody here asked for it, to have USF riflemen squad less powerful and forcing the player to use other units.
Are those other units too powerful? well they still necessary need to be good since they kind of lock you into tech and doctrinal choices.
We see it today, very few people goes for T2 as the ATgun doesn't bring much that early in comparison of the HMG, the HT is nice and can suppress on the move but lack of M20 mobility and bleed potential.
|
Not really base stat was one factor, the performance of its counter was another. Su-85/M36 have been buffed allot and those units would be far less OP in the current state even with their original stats.
Point here is that base stat alone don't mean allot since there are number of other factor in play.
As I have pointed out to you the base that of JLI is not that great to begin with but there is a number of bonuses they get that are too much.
Didn't mentioned base stats but stats in general. As for what you explained, changing the unit stats or counters stats is the same thing. We didn't cut SU85 price in half to make it better counter to KT. |
Then you should test ranger 3 BARs...
That makes no sense at all.
Over performing is a unit that performs better than it should, according to you KT over perform because its base stats are OP...
In order for a unit to over perform it has to compared to something and one has to take into all all factor including price...
In addition the "base stat" are not that good to begin with, when built they have the same weapon as grenadiers with 0.8 target size.
How do you compare T-A stat with another unit since it has a unique profile? KT is in the same situation, no other faction has a such a similar unit. Brumbar also has a unique profile etc...
KT was OP because of its stats, T-A was OP at release because of its stat. And yet they also had incredible cost also at that time.
What about UKF airbombing (can't remember the name) that was wipping half of the map for an incredible cost at UKF release.
All of those units and abilities have seen their stats modified, not their price increased. |
Relic Entertainment
