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Thread: Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback26 Apr 2021, 03:00 AM Jump back to quoted post25 Apr 2021, 13:55 PMthedarkarmadillo Problem with Turing the E8 into a Panther is you will STILL have a Jackson along side it. So then you have a durable meatshields that can punch at heavy cats AND a 60 range powerhouse that can outrage, brawl and chase. It's no contest between being in the shit or outside of it shooting in with no risk of return fire. That's the problem with the E8. It's got no purpose because the Jackson makes it obsolete. There is no scenario where USF Sherman variants work while the Jackson is the perfect AT machine in every single scenario. The only way the E8 could find a nich is as a command vehicle with extra abilities that make its unneeded role irrelevant. Sorta like the command panzer where the tank itself is next to useless but the abilities it brings have value. This isn't all that different from having a jp4 and Panther. Cost is similar except Jackson has a turret. I don't think its an issue. The problem is not Jackson is an AT machine. Its that the E8 sucks to use because it sucks at everything including cost. There are some 'bad' tanks to use but are made better because of a niche role. Take Churchill for example, the only thing its good for is tanking damage and being a relatively cheap damage sponge. M10 is a worse-off Jackson but its a really cost effective AT vehicle with a speed boost ability. 221 comes stupid early like UC and has a late game resource boost. What does the E8 have going for it? What is the E8 good at? Pretty much nothing. It gets out classed by the other stock options. Its expensive as heck so deep flanking manoeuvres (where the tank shines) are punished easily. It doesn't have cheap cost, it doesn't have good AT, it doesn't have good AI, its armour and HP is mediocre. What does it have going for it? Pretty much nothing. The Commander upgrade is a nice experimental change but I don't think its going to save it. IMO its pretty sad to see such an iconic tank be out of use and be so bad to use. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: CoH2 statistics of top200 ONLY.25 Apr 2021, 08:30 AM Interesting how 3v3 looks pretty balanced in terms of winrate. I wonder why. Time to start queuing for 3v3s In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Petition to Nerf/Remove Soviet Mortar Flare25 Apr 2021, 08:10 AM It costs muni to use and you can simply counter it by moving out of the way. Alternately you can go for the muni points to starve the Soviet player from munis. You can activate counter-barrage on your mortars to counter barrage the spotting mortar. Incendiary does not come from the soviet mortar but a call-in. If they're spending so much muni to get rid of your support weapons then you should retreat and at least keep your weapons for another fight. Doesn't really feel like there's anything broken about it. This is a counter to MG42s so the player doesn't run into an MG42 blindly. You have your own methods of dealing with it. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback25 Apr 2021, 05:21 AM Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2021, 08:12 AMMr. Someguy I can't help but feel frustration seeing my T-34 bounce shots off the back of an Elefant at 10 range. Discounting Ram+Offmap, discounting SU-85 (which cannot fight an Elefant), discounting AT Guns (which will be vulnerable to capture since you're wheeling them up to the enemy's front line), I'm at a loss as to what the appropriate course of action is. I've expressed this before and have yet to receive an answer from anybody. Elefant and Jagdtigers require a big commitment to kill. You should have call-ins and multiple tanks, infantry and AT guns ready. Technically for the cost of 1 Elefant, you can almost afford 3x T34s. One T34 bouncing a shot is pretty devastating but when you have 3x T34s firing at the rear of the elefant and 1 shot bounces then its not as devastating. Almost always, for me, its a coordinated push against the elefant when supporting infantry are not nearby that does it. Full send all your tanks and AT guns. Infantry on standby, save a call-in for the pakwall that is most likely nearby and be ready to block the elefant from retreating in any way possible. Also be ready to alt+f4 if the push doesn't work. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback25 Apr 2021, 04:55 AM Jump back to quoted post24 Apr 2021, 20:00 PMgeneral_gawain I personally think that alone wouldn't be so much of a gain since it has smoke launchers already, which need some foresight of course (but smoke pots / Panzer Tactican should have that delay too). I do think E8 needs either an AOE buff around Cromwell level (that is still below AI of PZIV/T34) or a skill shot like WP. The main problem of E8 is that it is far behind HE Shot of M4A3 at AI performance and far behind AT performance of M36. So having two E8s instead of one M4A3 and one M36 (wich are cheaper in addition) isn't worth the doctrinal choice. It gets even more obvious at late game. One M4A3 and two M36s are just plain better than three E8s. While HE shells will force the infantry away, two M36s are a match for pretty much any armored unit axis can field in lategame. This really nails it. I've written about the E8 so much for so long too but it all boils down to the E8 not having a defined role. It does everything badly and nothing good making it not worth the cost. Several options exist for the E8 but the balance team never full sends anything which keeps this tank at a gimped state. Heres a thread I made a year ago on the subject: https://www.coh2.org/topic/105224/winter-patch-current-state-of-doctrinal-armour/page/1#post_id830328 1. I think the best possible option is to make the E8 the Allied Panther. Make the E8 have the same cost, MG stats, HP, armour stats (high front, low rear), same pen and same range. The E8 can already take on any medium tank but struggles against Panther or better armoured tanks. Making it a Panther equivalent puts more focus on microing the tank effectively to counter Panthers. It doesn't change the tank all that much except give it better power vs heavier tanks. Compared to the Panther, the E8 is in a tougher position because it has to fight Axis big cats. 2. Give it the ability to change ammo like the normal Sherman so its basically a full upgrade of the normal Sherman except with better armour and HVSS suspension. This choice is pretty boring though because its like dozer upgrade. 3. Give it higher pen, range and lower AI power so it can act as a replacement to the Jackson. Again, the main difference between E8 and say the Pz4 is the tanks that it has to go up against. Higher pen and range isn't going to change the game all that much except having a harder to kill 'Jackson'. These changes aren't going to change match ups that the E8 currently has. It will still win against other lights/meds but it becomes a threat vs big cats like Panther/Tiger/KingTiger. This is significantly better than the spot that the E8 is in right now. Its not much of a threat to those big cats unless its flanking which is a very high risk, high reward scenario which favours the defender. Whats most important is the E8 costs so dang much for mediocre performance. This is why the E8 sucks to use. Also I do agree that buffing the E8 wont save this commander but it'll make it a lot better to use. If it doesn't have a chance in 1v1s at least give it a chance in 4v4s. ToT would be a great idea or even the new 225 muni arty barrage. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback25 Apr 2021, 04:38 AM Jump back to quoted post23 Apr 2021, 03:20 AMMMX I think this is pretty much the case. If you factor in ROF and penetration only, the normal rounds perform roughly the same in terms of TTK vs a Panther compared to the HVAP shells (median is 45.5 s and 44.5 s at 10 m and 50.1 s and 50.8 s at max range for AP and HVAP, respectively, so HVAP is slightly better up close but things are pretty even at long range). However, HVAP rounds also have much better accuracy than the normal AP shells and you actually gain an up to 40% higher chance to sore a natural hit (accuracy roll, not scatter hit) at max range. That's IMHO their greatest benefit and it's easily worth to switch to HVAP during most long-range tank engagements because of this alone. The ROF decrease in the beta widens the performance gap even further, so I'd expect to see HVAP being used even more frequently if these changes make it into the live game (if the M4C will still be viable then, that is). That being said I'm still kind of on the fence towards the ROF change, though after running the numbers the effect on the AI performance isn't all too great (mostly only a ~8-10% loss). Guess we'll have to wait and see how this turns out after a bit more testing. Thanks for the math! I knew something was up and that explains it.Odd how HVAP is better up close. You would think it would be the other way around. I still think HVAP needs a pen boost to give it the edge over normal AP instead of this RoF nerf. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback25 Apr 2021, 04:33 AM Jump back to quoted post23 Apr 2021, 11:25 AMgeneral_gawain M4A3 HE shells >> PZIV > T34/76 and T34/85 > Cromwell >> E8 > M4A3 standard shells = M4C (wheras the difference between PZIV and T34 in both versions is neglectable since it is so small) Odd that M4C and 76mm shells are rated so low. It definitely does not feel that way. The shells do have some AoE to them but its not much but it makes up for high fire rate (as you've mentioned). The 76mm normal shells are definitely better than Sherman AP shells. At least to me. I don't think an AoE buff is the way since the fire rate can still be buffed with radio net and combined arms. Lower fuel cost to compensate for lower fire rate might be better. I'm still in favour of a HVAP fire rate buff though. HVAP shoots too slow and sometimes misses, I would rather have the high fire rate of the normal round over HVAP in most cases. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback23 Apr 2021, 02:06 AM Jump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 15:51 PMgeneral_gawain He-Sherman has AOE of 4 with a far damage of 16, normal shell of 76mm has AOE of 2 with a far damage of 8. This is not "slightly" but worlds apart... 76mm covered some of this huge difference (not all of it) with a faster RoF and thus was a swarm alternative to the standard combo of M4A3 and M36, especially when used with "combined arms" in the right moment. Thats pretty much gone now. The biggest problem of the Company is that it is not very versatile. It relies heavily on an early LV push followed by a midgame Sherman push which is timed with combined arms. It has no tools if that ends without success. There is a reason the Company is so low ranked in multiplayer loadout pick (last one in 2vs2/3vs3/4vs4). Hmmm thats odd because I enjoy using Mechanized in 4v4s mainly. Its always on my roster. I know other factions have their niche but in a fuel heavy game mode, Mechanized Company really shines to me. They have an answer to almost everything and they have one of the best generalist mediums imo being the 76 Sherman. My main complaint with the 76 is that HVAP still sometimes bounces rounds and with the reduced fire-rate, really makes it not a good choice. Why fire a better round when it still can bounce? I would rather fire more rounds with a higher bounce chance. Pretty sure if someone took the statistics on fire-rate + pen rate, normal rounds are probably better vs Panther. It certainly feels that way. Perhaps Balance team needs to increase the fire rate on HVAP to compensate the reduced fire rate on normal rounds. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback23 Apr 2021, 01:10 AM Jump back to quoted post22 Apr 2021, 09:36 AMtheekvn yes, it's vet 1 ability I was able to use it at vet 0 on a fresh wc51. I think the arty barrage is a vet 1 ability. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback22 Apr 2021, 04:09 AM Jump back to quoted post20 Apr 2021, 17:51 PMProtos Angelus Wasn't this always like that? The big brain team nerfs something deemed OP without any rework at all. That is, pure nerfs with nothing in return. Calliope is OP, nerfed to the ground without any rework to it.. Pak howi was good, now it can't wipe for s***. It did get the 6 man in return but that's just a gimmick. Makes it a tad more survivable against werfers, and that's it. E8 is getting put in line with comet in laughable ways. Now the Mechanized is getting a nerf without anything substantial in return. Don't get me wrong, a lot of nerfs were needed on some USF units as well as OST... but just plain nerfing something is such a lazy way of doing things. If you're going to do something, do it right or let somebody else do it right. Same happened with Ostruppen. They got a hard nerf with nothing in return, which now might go to a hard buff. 0 imagination or any sort of brainstorm, but that's how it's been since relic passed the club of detonation over to them. Patch --> 1v1 meta builds arise --> nerfing meta builds Reworking units is too much of a hassle it seems. What a rework would mean: Keeping a unit unique. Eg. Calliope was OP, no doubt. Instead of making it a copy paste of katyusha. Nerf the agility to the ground, reduce the min range, keep it sturdier. Pak howi - nerf accuracy on autofire so that it's unreliable against everything except mega blobs and make barrage a bit more accurate. Not the AOE nerf it got last update. Scott, for example, received a rework. It became a mobile platform for accurate barrages on team weapons. Had autofire nerfed but barrage is reliable. Plus, the smoke is downright amazing on it. A reworked unit. To be fair: Mechanized Commander has an incredible tool kit. It gets so many good vehicles. The doctrine slots are consolidated to provide 2 bonuses per 1 slot. The recent HT bonus buffed mechanized a fair bit too since he has access to HTs at a fairly early stage too. Wc51 is probably one of the best early game light vehicles in the game with an officer like tool kit and even with improved mark. Early game it fights pretty well and transports well and late game, its basically your wheeled officer squad with mark and arty call in for hard points. Even with basic mark, it would still be a great ability. Lets not mention that it has scout detection too. I don't see other officer squads with scout detection. But then again, I don't see other officer squads dying to a pak wall. Now lets be fair with the 76mm Sherman. Its basically an solid upgrade to the normal Sherman for only 15 fuel. The normal round is slightly worse than HE in terms of AI but much better against armour and the HVAP shell, while its a meme, is useful sometimes vs big cats. I still see it bounce on Panthers though which makes me think why bother. Lower RoF on 76mm Sherman is a small price to pay to have this versatile and fun commander. The wide variety is what makes this commander great. A nerf to the 76 just means you should put more focus on his other vehicles. Perhaps if you're in need of AI then maybe you should start pumping out more mortar HTs and microing them. Speaking strictly from a team games perspective. In: COH2 Balance