Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback

A tank that can self spot isn't doing it only for itself, with scope you know where is your opponent.

The difference is he's talking about a situation where you play aggressively. Like he said, an AT gun crewed by pathfinders gets extra vision with no downsides. You can attack move an AT gun like that and hit tanks with little to no downside. Tanks with spotting scopes lose their vision bonus while moving, so they actually can't do that.

Tanks with spotting scopes lose their vision bonus while moving, so they actually can't do that.

Because that would be OP. But it doesn't mean you attack move your atgun on the frontline because their crew are pathfinder all the game long.

I do think Sherman variants will only work if they are a straight upgrade of M4A3 the same way the T34/85 is a straight upgrade of T34/76 (with more cost/population too of course). T34/85 has same AI but more AT and more survivability. Although it struggles more versus axis heavies than the SU-85 it still does something.

76mm and E8 either need a buff to their standard shell AOE or a shell switch to an AI shell. If E8 and 76mm both would have the same AI shell (same RoF, same acc, same AOE, same low to medicore penetration), 76mm could be the cheaper and more spammable one with 640 hp and an AT shell with higher RoF while E8 could be the one with higher survivability, more range and more penetration but lower Rof. You could further differentiate by giving different vet1 abilities (for example HVAP for E8 / Flanking Speed for 76mm).

if yo compare the E8 to the m4 its actually one hell of a bargain. it doesnt have the HE shells of course but its got stupid strong base stats. but because it doesnt have the AI its worthless, as any AT vehcle in the USF army is going to compete with the jackson. the m10 is also a phenomenal AT vehicle for its cost, but again, jackson...

i dont really like the idea of straight upgrades. it works for the t34 because the t34 is pretty shit and you end up paying nearly half again more for simply inflated stats (not to understate the value in it). theres no utility to play with, no crews to bounce around (you could press your advantage and rush an m4 then later have an instantly vetted superior tank via crew switch).
for soviet its cut and dried. usf it gets complicated...

sherman AT variants can only work if the jackson is toned down. it will require revisiting stock medium AT (i belive officers should get the elite zooks, then theres a) cause to get them and b) a more reliable AT source) then m10s and Sherman variations have an actual place as an alternative to medium AT, like there always were supposed to be. it also allows for some bloody variation. right now the enemy build order is a puma a luchs and a stuka. you will build a jackson. if they build a p4 ande a jp4 you will build a jackson. if they build a ST and a KT you will buiuld a jackson. if ost goes stug spam, you will build a jackson. if they get an elefant, you will build a jackson. theres a number of options that are so overshadowed by the jackson it harms commander viability...

the sherman is already solid and versatile, i dont see much in the ways of variation on that that doesnt end up being boring ontop of the issues i mention earlier

Like he said, an AT gun crewed by pathfinders gets extra vision with no downsides.

Crewed Pathfinders only selfspot for MG, for ATG it isn't enough sight since part of their sight is bound to the squad and another part is bound to vet1 (that doesn't get carried over).

The downside is the higher reinforcement cost. It directly kicks in the moment you crew the weapon for the first time, since you have to reinforce the ATG and the Pathfinder squad to full squad size. Its like crewing a MG with Shock troops, you'll get a very durable MG which can self defend versus close assault flank attacks, but you have to pay for it.

Frankly Nerfing Pathfinder crewing is weird......

And If 76mm Sherman's AP shell RoF get nerfed. Then none of Mechanized Company's advantage lefts.
If really get Nerfed. Reserve armor(76mm Sherman and 75mm Sherman Dozer Blade upgrade) Must be preserved. At least one of its attractive point should be left.

Mechanized Company is good for Brawl because both Dozer 75mm sherman and 76mm Sherman ARE TOGETHER.

None Company Must be OP. But None must be gone to Oblivion and Being Buried.

Problem with Turing the E8 into a Panther is you will STILL have a Jackson along side it. So then you have a durable meatshields that can punch at heavy cats AND a 60 range powerhouse that can outrage, brawl and chase. It's no contest between being in the shit or outside of it shooting in with no risk of return fire. That's the problem with the E8. It's got no purpose because the Jackson makes it obsolete.

There is no scenario where USF Sherman variants work while the Jackson is the perfect AT machine in every single scenario.
The only way the E8 could find a nich is as a command vehicle with extra abilities that make its unneeded role irrelevant. Sorta like the command panzer where the tank itself is next to useless but the abilities it brings have value.

You seriously undervalue AT/AI tanks. Jackson is a powerhouse in 1v1 and 3v3+ OPEN maps. On closed up maps like Hamburger port or Angrymundy, Essen Turdworks, Ettelbruck Turdstation it's value goes down due to the lane-y nature and really no benefit of having a turret.

You could easily use a bit beefier tank that has decent AT but also has AI (something that jackson has absolutely 0 of).
Furthermore, in 1v1s it's potential would be heightened since you won't encounter more than one panther and in case of P4s, it will win 1v1 (only thing that can change that is the support you/opponent is using).
Lastly, a tank like E8 would be the USF version of "Hail Mary attempt" in lategame teamgames. Currently Panthers, T34-85s and Comets can be used that way. Panthers probably the best because of the pintle MG (which will target infantry 360, unlike turret MGs which target infantry at turret vector or hull MGs -- tank vector).

The only thing that I would further buff E8 with is the armour and increase the price by 5 fuel (230 armour).

E8 could be a tank that will lose to a Panther 1v1 but has smoke canisters and better AI (and with the commander upgrade on it, can focus AT or AI) and there is always a fact that there are other units on the field. A panther might zone out the E8 but your AT gun/ pak howis can zone out the panther/pak40. Still a lot more micro than the OST, which relies on more expensive but tougher tanks, but with good execution you can have a tank that has value in 1v1 and 3v3+.

2x E8s would be a good hunting squadron compared to Jackson + Sherman HE that would not be susceptible to dives.

but because it doesnt have the AI its worthless, as any AT vehcle in the USF army is going to compete with the jackson.

That basically is it, since you can't compete wit Jackson at AT, you...
a) either need decent AI (E8/76mm are just not good enough at AI)
b) or unique abilities (E8/76mm have none)
c) or be dirt cheap (E8/76mm aren't dirt cheap)

the m10 is also a phenomenal AT vehicle for its cost, but again, jackson...

I disagree. After the nerf to 76mm and the buff to Armor Company, M10 will be the only viable tank that will see its use despite of Jackson. Just because it meets criteria c) its dirt cheap. Swarming axis armor with multiple M10s can be very strong on some maps.

no crews to bounce around (you could press your advantage and rush an m4 then later have an instantly vetted superior tank via crew switch).

You can put your Stuart crew into a M4A3 or Scott, later you can put the same crew in your Jackson. Its nothing else at live.

sherman AT variants can only work if the jackson is toned down. it will require revisiting stock medium AT

Yeah that would be a way to go, but since this is a complete balance overhaul a rework like that will most probably not happen.

Problem with Turing the E8 into a Panther is you will STILL have a Jackson along side it. So then you have a durable meatshields that can punch at heavy cats AND a 60 range powerhouse that can outrage, brawl and chase. It's no contest between being in the shit or outside of it shooting in with no risk of return fire. That's the problem with the E8. It's got no purpose because the Jackson makes it obsolete.

There is no scenario where USF Sherman variants work while the Jackson is the perfect AT machine in every single scenario.
The only way the E8 could find a nich is as a command vehicle with extra abilities that make its unneeded role irrelevant. Sorta like the command panzer where the tank itself is next to useless but the abilities it brings have value.

This isn't all that different from having a jp4 and Panther. Cost is similar except Jackson has a turret. I don't think its an issue.

The problem is not Jackson is an AT machine. Its that the E8 sucks to use because it sucks at everything including cost.

There are some 'bad' tanks to use but are made better because of a niche role. Take Churchill for example, the only thing its good for is tanking damage and being a relatively cheap damage sponge. M10 is a worse-off Jackson but its a really cost effective AT vehicle with a speed boost ability. 221 comes stupid early like UC and has a late game resource boost.

What does the E8 have going for it?

What is the E8 good at? Pretty much nothing. It gets out classed by the other stock options. Its expensive as heck so deep flanking manoeuvres (where the tank shines) are punished easily. It doesn't have cheap cost, it doesn't have good AT, it doesn't have good AI, its armour and HP is mediocre. What does it have going for it? Pretty much nothing. The Commander upgrade is a nice experimental change but I don't think its going to save it.

IMO its pretty sad to see such an iconic tank be out of use and be so bad to use.

..., it doesn't have good AT, ...

Easy8
Penetration near 200
Penetration mid 165
Penetration far 155

PzIV J
Penetration near 125
Penetration mid 115
Penetration far 110

Snip

The EZ8 is the brawler tank that USF otherwise does not get. 5 shots and >200 armor give it a clear anti medium role. Where it falls short a bit is that there is not that much benefit outside of mediums. The AoE is decently worse so there is no real off-duty use vs infantry. Against Panthers I don't know if it is worth the marked up price, you'd usually be better off with a jackson in that regard. Especially given that the USF ATG eats a ton of mun to be effective late game.
I can see usage for it in 1v1 and maybe 2v2, in 3v3 I'd probably stick with a Jackson in any case.

Easy8
Penetration near 200
Penetration mid 165
Penetration far 155

PzIV J
Penetration near 125
Penetration mid 115
Penetration far 110

Pen values do not mean anything. You should not post them without any context, especially if you compare Axis and Allied units.

....
Pen values do not mean anything. You should not post them without any context, especially if you compare Axis and Allied units.

Chance to to perpetrate:
Easy8 vs Panzer J
66%/70%/85%

Panzer j vs Easy8
51%/53%/58%

Easy8 has a clear advantage over Panzer J even if PzIV has slightly more armor, it even has a HP advantage.

I don't get it, why are we now comparing a late-game doctrinal unit which should pack quite a punch with a cost akin to a panther to a mid-game tank with much lower cost? Even with that badly chosen example it shows that EZ8 doesn't pen much at all. Or was that on purpose?

Chance to to perpetrate:
Easy8 vs Panzer J
66%/70%/85%

Panzer j vs Easy8
51%/53%/58%

Easy8 has a clear advantage over Panzer J even if PzIV has slightly more armor, it even has a HP advantage.

Yes, this is some of the data you should have given, the pen values themselves do not help.

But you also can't neglect other stock units. The P4 has a mid-long range chance of ~70% to penetrate a Sherman and 100% for the Jackson once it gets in range.
EZ8 ranges between 65-75% depending on target and range (about 75% if you get in close to about 15 meters) vs OKW tanks and 65-90% vs Ostheer units at similar ranges. The EZ8 also shoots about 0.7 secs slower. The 5 meter range advantage that is currently planned should therefore allow it to get the second shot off at roughly the same time as the P4.

Of course it has an advantage vs other mediums, that's its whole purpose.

I don't get it, why are we now comparing a late-game doctrinal unit which should pack quite a punch with a cost akin to a panther to a mid-game tank?

EZ8 has much lower cost than the Panther, even in the preview.

EZ8 has much lower cost than the Panther, even in the preview.

Yes, thank you, I am aware, hence me saying "akin" (... which should pack quite a punch with a cost akin to a panther to a mid-game tank ...), and not the word "exactly", with a clear relationship to the EZ8's late-game and doctrinal only appearance and its further increase in cost.

It still does not help at all why we're comparing these two units out of the blue, it feels much arbitrary.

Edit: If we are going full patch notes style, the notes say that the EZ8' "ability to defeat most medium tanks thanks to its armor and additional health." Therefore, comparing it to a PZ4 is useless.

Yes, thank you, I am aware, hence me saying "akin" (... which should pack quite a punch with a cost akin to a panther to a mid-game tank ...), with a clear relationship to the EZ8's late-game appearance.

I wouldn't rate a tank that is ~20% cheaper in all categories even if you take the balance preview changes into account as (very)similar/akin to tank XYZ. I'd also not necessarily call it a late game unit, since you can get it around the 16-17 minute mark. You can make it to that time without being forced to build a medium tank beforehand. And given that its currently only role is to kill mediums, it will only shine while mediums are the strongest unit on the field, which is not the late game either.

Why would you build a tank that is only good to fight mediums when you can, for the same price, build a tank that is good vs medium and heavy tanks.

It is not only the combo M4A3 / Jackson that is good, its the logic of building a sherman to punish infantry while able to defend itself vs medium (with the appropriate support) and then build a Jackson to fight anything armored.

Questions anyone should answer are:

Why would you build a M4A3 then a Ez8?
Why would you build a Ez8 first and then a M4A3 or Jackson?
Why would you build a Jackson and then a Ez8?


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Still haven't see an answer for my other question

Any reason or background decision making on the nerf for pathfinder crew? I mean we see this nerf at the 3rd iteration of a patch that is supposed to tune existing changes brought during the 1 and 2 iteration, here we see something coming from nowhere on a doctrine you are unwiling to modify otherwise, even align the P47 cost with other loitering cost.