What are the problems of Soviets in 1v1?

First I would like to say that the OST vs Soviets matchup at the moment seems to be fine. I think that matchup is in a good spot so let's leave it at that.

However against OKW's lineable now a days, there just seems to be SVT cons and B4 left as viable options.

Choosing SVT cons however, will leave no good armor option in the mid to late game.

Counter Attacks doctrine remain then the final good option for soviets as all the abilities it has is superb

Here's the thing though, soviets shouldn't be a B4 cheese faction. So I want to open a discussion on what's affecting Soviets in the matchup.

One thing I've noticed is... With the advent of Falls which beat Soviet infantry at any range as well as being able to faust Clown Cars and T70s, Suppression seems to be needed the most and that forces people to go Cons + T2. Which makes Penals less attractive than ever due to their lack of scaling and the early availability of superior infantry for the opposition.

Also, why is the Is-2 one CP more than other heavy tanks of its class? It doesn't seem to perform any better.

Soviets have a significantly easier time vs OKW. No early fausts, no early 222/251/250, significantly worse support weapons, no stuka AT strafe, no Tiger Ace.

Soviets have a significantly easier time vs OKW. No early fausts, no early 222/251/250, significantly worse support weapons, no stuka AT strafe, no Tiger Ace.

*if you go penals, only penals and always penals, any deviation from that results in a painful loss unless you badly outplay OKW.

*if you go penals, only penals and always penals, any deviation from that results in a painful loss unless you badly outplay OKW.

Blessed be the strafniki and their voice lines on youtube I’ve set as my alarm.

Generally I think soviets are okay, I like them, I think they are probably 3rd best and 3rd worst in 1v1, but much better in teamgames.

Map control early
Generally speaking they cap a little slow if they don't go for cons early. The tech structures cost the most of any faction if you build them at the start. Plus medics also cost the most manpower, equal only to usf. Only an OKW backtech costs more. When you buy that medic upgrade you usually cede a notable amount of map control having not produced a unit with that 250 manpower, and if you really needed healing it can take some time to get back out there.

Tier 1 starts
Penals not scaling particularly well hurts a little, they really bleed a lot at 27 manpower .8~ Ra at vet 3. The sniper can be good but it's more a counter to weapons teams than an every game unit, due to the prevalence of light vehicles in current meta.

Conscript strategies
Conscripts scale pretty cost effectively with 7 man, but it can be hard to dislodge an opponent if you get off to the wrong foot. Conscript strategies rely a little bit on getting map control and holding it by fighting in cover positions and then producing a light vehicle for the midgame

Vehicles - Lategame
If you don't go for A doctrine with a vehicle callin you can risk bleeding late game if you lose the vehicle advantage. Trying to come back with 640 hp vehicles can be hard when they may die in 2 volleys. The Su85 and t34 are solid units, but they are not units i would try to spam to win a close game.

Maxims
However I think the maxim being relatively weak is the biggest problem
I see the above factors all as risks except for the maxim, which is just not as good as other mgs. Focusing in on that unit, if you build them early your map control will be poor b/c of the t2 160 manpower cost and maxim build time. Plus you may bleed badly as they cost 20 mp per model with 1.25 RA. If you build them as maybe your 5th unit after 4 cons healing, it's not really a great unit to come at ~4-7 minutes when enemies may have vet or upgrades.

On the flip side in team games you can still brute force your way through enemies with multiple maxims b/c of their incredibly durability from minute 1 its just hard to get enough shots in without being suppressed. I think this is why the maxim power level is relatively low.

Soviets have a significantly easier time vs OKW. No early fausts, no early 222/251/250, significantly worse support weapons, no stuka AT strafe, no Tiger Ace.

They do have the regular tiger now. Also the Panzerfusiliers which get at snares right out of the gate and also out scale the Penals by quite a lot.

They also have a early 221 which has a supringly good match vs the scout car.

There's no way OKW has worse weapon teams. The raktten is super safe and easy to vet now. The MG34 is the 2nd worse MG in the game only 2nd TO THE MAXIM. The maxim you wont really get if you get penals because of backteching.

I'm gonna assume the benefit of the doubt that you're talking about the 120mm or the Dshka with weapons team though. I'm gonna have to admit those are better yes.

They do have the regular tiger now. Also the Panzerfusiliers which get at snares right out of the gate and also out scale the Penals by quite a lot.

They also have a early 221 which has a supringly good match vs the scout car.

There's no way OKW has worse weapon teams. The raktten is super safe and easy to vet now. The MG34 is the 2nd worse MG in the game only 2nd TO THE MAXIM. The maxim you wont really get if you get penals because of backteching.

I'm gonna assume the benefit of the doubt that you're talking about the 120mm or the Dshka with weapons team though. I'm gonna have to admit those are better yes.

Significantly worse weapon teams than Ostheer, not worse than Soviets.

Also the 221 straight up dies to a solo M3. Put them against eachother in cheatcommands mod, you’ll be surprised by how good the M3 is, especially if you use the 5% armour bulletin.

As for the fusiliers they are horrible until they upgrade, so there are downsides to them.

Tier 1 starts
Penals not scaling particularly well hurts a little, they really bleed a lot at 27 manpower .8~ Ra at vet 3. The sniper can be good but it's more a counter to weapons teams than an every game unit, due to the prevalence of light vehicles in current meta.

they have same vet as pPfusi, and they are claimed as the best scaling infantry

Significantly worse weapon teams than Ostheer, not worse than Soviets.

Also the 221 straight up dies to a solo M3. Put them against eachother in cheatcommands mod, you’ll be surprised by how good the M3 is, especially if you use the 5% armour bulletin.

most units that only shoot in 1 direction are better in a test like that than ones designed to use their mobility and dont.
put a puma against an isu in a biased test like that one, then do it again microing the unit like its intended and you will get wildly different results.
ive killed many m3 scout cars with the 221 becuase in a real world scenario you dont sit there and let it use all its advantages without any of yours.

most units that only shoot in 1 direction are better in a test like that than ones designed to use their mobility and dont.
put a puma against an isu in a biased test like that one, then do it again microing the unit like its intended and you will get wildly different results.
ive killed many m3 scout cars with the 221 becuase in a real world scenario you dont sit there and let it use all its advantages without any of yours.

That’s meaningless, I never said the M3 hardcounters the 221, but if you micro it properly you have a good shot at pushing it back without losing your M3, which is significantly different to how a 222 vs M3 matchup would go. He said the 221 is supeisingly good vs the M3 when in a real scenario it would fail to kill an M3 with a prnal squad inside.

They do have the regular tiger now. Also the Panzerfusiliers which get at snares right out of the gate and also out scale the Penals by quite a lot.

They also have a early 221 which has a supringly good match vs the scout car.

There's no way OKW has worse weapon teams. The raktten is super safe and easy to vet now. The MG34 is the 2nd worse MG in the game only 2nd TO THE MAXIM. The maxim you wont really get if you get penals because of backteching.

I'm gonna assume the benefit of the doubt that you're talking about the 120mm or the Dshka with weapons team though. I'm gonna have to admit those are better yes.

I think he meant that OKW has worse team weapons than OST. He'd have to be pretty delusional to think that the Maxim is better than the MG34.

I tried a 120 in a match today that was infantry heavy on Elst. It got no kills in around 30 minutes of playing. It costs about 40% more than a standard mortar, while having a much slower fire rate and the same damage, just over a little bit larger area. It's the worst mortar in the game.

I think he meant that OKW has worse team weapons than OST. He'd have to be pretty delusional to think that the Maxim is better than the MG34.

I tried a 120 in a match today that was infantry heavy on Elst. It got no kills in around 30 minutes of playing. It costs about 40% more than a standard mortar, while having a much slower fire rate and the same damage, just over a little bit larger area. It's the worst mortar in the game.

That is misleading, all mortar have the same damage and 120mm has a larger AOE, the AOE is not "little bit larger". It x150%.

Use the 120 mm vs static targets like OKW trucks and you will see how good it is.

I tried a 120 in a match today that was infantry heavy on Elst. It got no kills in around 30 minutes of playing. It costs about 40% more than a standard mortar, while having a much slower fire rate and the same damage, just over a little bit larger area. It's the worst mortar in the game.

This mortar not design to kill fullhealth squads, it design to bleed them and make them retreat. One shot and the whole squad turned to wounded, almost died mens. IF you want, you can make 2 120 mm mortars - after that you will see how tough it can be. I saw sometimes this strat, in small maps it could be effective.

That’s meaningless, I never said the M3 hardcounters the 221, but if you micro it properly you have a good shot at pushing it back without losing your M3, which is significantly different to how a 222 vs M3 matchup would go. He said the 221 is supeisingly good vs the M3 when in a real scenario it would fail to kill an M3 with a prnal squad inside.

You don't need to kill to count it as a victory. But once you throw 300mp into the mix yea it kinda tips the balance a bit which is hardly unreasonable.... I don't remember the 221 cost but it's then fighting 490mp and 15 fuel

they have same vet as pPfusi, and they are claimed as the best scaling infantry

Yes they are very similar outside of the reinforce cost fussiliers 25, penals 27. This is the primary factor making it hard for them to scale. Building 3-4 squads of penals, a normal amount of infantry is incredibly hard to afford on the reinforce. Late Game I find that it's more prudent to build cons, guards or shocks if you lose a penal as they will not bleed as badly with better ra, armor and or lower reinforce costs.

300/6 = 50 per model or 25 mp reinforce, but they are 27 from the consecutive nerfs following a period of penals being meta.

Who is claiming they are the best scaling infantry? Regardless of their identity, in absence of facts supporting it that assertion does not hold weight.

they have same vet as pPfusi, and they are claimed as the best scaling infantry

Scaling doesn't necessarily mean vet. Weapon upgrade (for that sweet dps concentration and dps boost through munition), nades, snares, AT, resilient to late game wipes, utility, cover creation, reinforce cost, reinforce speed, etc.

Penals are a great option early mid and fall flat on the later stages of the game, specially if you have to rebuild them. Conscripts are the completely opposite of them. PF are basically a middle ground between those two.

Scaling doesn't necessarily mean vet. Weapon upgrade (for that sweet dps concentration and dps boost through munition), nades, snares, AT, resilient to late game wipes, utility, cover creation, reinforce cost, reinforce speed, etc.

Penals are a great option early mid and fall flat on the later stages of the game, specially if you have to rebuild them. Conscripts are the completely opposite of them. PF are basically a middle ground between those two.

I tested Penal fighting power todaz vs Grens and also a bit vs Volks.
They do very well, win most fights with ~3 models (sometimes 2, a little less often also 4) both in and out of cover at least when at range 20+ (have not tested below that except for running Volks into Penals from range 30). I tested vanilla Penals vs Volks/Gren vet 0, vet 3 and with Volks/Gren weapon upgrade at vet 0 and 3.

I think Penal scaling criticism might come down partially to over exaggeration. The other part are true factors like lack in utility/reinforce cost etc.

I tested Penal fighting power todaz vs Grens and also a bit vs Volks.
They do very well, win most fights with ~3 models (sometimes 2, a little less often also 4) both in and out of cover at least when at range 20+ (have not tested below that except for running Volks into Penals from range 30). I tested vanilla Penals vs Volks/Gren vet 0, vet 3 and with Volks/Gren weapon upgrade at vet 0 and 3.

I think Penal scaling criticism might come down partially to over exaggeration. The other part are true factors like lack in utility/reinforce cost etc.

The point is that late game, the game focuses less and less on sitting 2 infantry in cover poking at each other as the pace gets faster and what shifts the balance of the game towards once side or the other is not prolonged engagements.

Read what Honeynuts says. Late game you want Shocks/Guards/Cons as replacements. The first gives you nade, smoke, resilient and offensive CQC unit. Guards have nade, utility snare and defensive capabilities with supplementary AT dmg. Cons (7man) are cheaper and takes longer to dislodge while making you bleed les, AT nades. Penals AT are good for punishing mistakes on vehicle micro, but vanilla Penals are fair, in the sense that they don't have anything that will give you an edge on an engagement by spending munitions on them (outside of blunder with a short range, long fuse satchel).

As for the problems of Soviet, I always feel thin on Manpower. Very strange for a country that infamously had a seemingly endless pool of manpower. As Germans, especially OKW, manpower feels plentiful unless I'm taking crazy losses. As Soviets though, taking crazy losses seems to be the norm, you almost cannot get a Conscript into position without them becoming a 5 man squad.

Penals vs Okw vanilla isn't bad at all. I'd say vs Fusillers isn't bad either. Maybe the only real problem they have is the high model count which equals to a lot of bleed when tanks firing on them but that's not a real complaint.

Penals vs current meta of running into Falls all the time is horrible.

Forunately I haven't had to run into too many OKW players atm but I've been spectating the top 200 ladder games. Here's what i've noticed.

There's seem to be a strat revolving stalling to two Cps with a minimum T1 while banking up manpower. After 2CP, immediately go into spawning Falls on enemy cutoffs. Falls cloak into cover and destroy any soviet infantry that comes along. I've seen literal armies being replaced by Falls at this point. They win at every range vs the poor soviet line and even have invisible faust vs the T70, M5, or whatever light vehicles that comes their way. Whatever map that they lose in T1 which they know they are going to lose anyways.

Now it doesn't happen often, not every game has this strat and certainly not top 50. However, I ultimately think that it's very concerning