Rifles overperforming?

Literally nobody said the unit itself is op, they said the timing of it, when you go LT and super fast M20&Stuart is OP combined with the slower okw start.

Raketenwerfers and fausts should be available to you when it hits the field if not sooner.

That's all true, what I believe would help is the cost and time shift of USF teching:
LT & CPT: build time from 1m10s -> 30s, cost from 200M 35F -> 280M 30F
Vehicle unlock: build time from 20s -> 1m, cost from 50M 20F -> 0M 25F

This will help maintain current vehicle timing for USF. Currently Rifle squad builds in ~27s and LT or CPT build for 1m10s, this is a huge downtime on infantry so everyone builds the 3rd group of Riflemen because one can't allow him/herself to fight for the first 3 minutes with just 2xRifles and 1xRE. Also the HMG and AT gun are essential in most games so both officers are required which leaves us with RE, 3xRifles, LT and CPT (+Major later on).

Changing timing and cost would allow fitting 1 of the officers instead of 1 Rifle squad in the early game. USF player would have less squads overall (due to increased MP requirements), but LT or CPT would arrive earlier and these squads are marginally stronger than an average Riflemen squad due to having 1 non-transferable Thompson, so power level should more or less stay the same. Timing of the light vehicles would be unchanged. This would also leave some space in USF roster for the doctrinal infantry.

What do you think?

Also new pak howie is a lotto-cannon.

I mostly like this, but it has a problem and that’s USF snares.

Any build that reduces the number of Riflemen reduces the number of AT Riflegrenades possible on the field. Reducing the number of Riflemen in a build and replacing them with officers as you suggest does reduce the total number of infantry on the field, but you still end up with 4 squads of “Riflemen/substitutes” but only 2 of which can snare, 3 can throw grenades and 2 can use smoke grenades. If we go down the path of keeping officers mandatory then they need to be literally just copies of Riflemen with maybe one extra ability but still retaining ALL Riflemen abilities and veterancy.

The other option would be to make them very very different from Riflemen and make them non mandatory so it’s still worth getting them but you’re not forced to.

I prefer the second way, because it also helps builds that include call in infantry like Paratroopers, Rangers, Pathfinders and Assault Engineers. This allows your build to still have a pretty standard 4-5 infantry squads but 2-3 are Riflemen and 2 are your call ins. If you have mandatory officers then to have this same composition you’d have to have 1 Rifleman, 1 LT, 1 Captain and your 2 call in squads. This is fine if your officers are just Riflemen clones with maybe an extra ability, but if you don’t have a snare on them then you’re only going to have one squad that can snare. This is especially important because USF only has the AT Riflegrenade and Cavalry Riflemen Sticky Satchelcharge as it’s only snares.

So if we can’t get rid of officers as a mandatory unit, then can we make them identical to a rifleman squad instead? Maybe even get rid of the Thompson and give them an M1 Carbine instead that has Paratrooper Carbine stats. That would be more rifle squad like and more correct historically too.

Asking officers and tech buffs in a riflemen OP thread... the ultimate offtopic.

I mean, officers are just Riflemen with a Thompson, and they effect how many rifle squads you're going to build

Seems pretty on-topic...

Make the officer cons out as 2-3 men that u need to reinforce

One could simply make officer an upgrade to Riflemen.

Asking officers and tech buffs in a riflemen OP thread... the ultimate offtopic.

I wouldn’t call it a buff, more of a reorganization.

As for the flat “are Riflemen op?” question, no I don’t think they are “op!!”, but they are very good at close range right now.

Old Riflemen were good but matched up poorly to Volks due to the cost disparity. 280/28 vs 250/25. With equal munitions investment of nothing or 60 (single BAR Riflemen vs StG Volks or vanilla vs vanilla) Volks would win at least half of the time. This would be fine if it weren’t for the cost disparity and speed at which Volks could hit the field. With the cost and timing adjustments to Volksgrenadiers combined with the adjustment to Riflemen we now see Riflemen overperforming against Volksgrenadiers.

A return to old Riflemen stats would be fine if it were combined with a slight reduction to cost would make the Volk vs Riflemen matchup more even, but also less interesting (270/27 Riflemen vs 260/25 Volks). This is a step towards homogenization, which is easy to balance but also less interesting.

Another option would be to give Volks a cost break again (back to 250/25), which leads to a very strong OKW opening but is countered by the more powerful Riflemen. How this Volks cost cut would impact Soviet and British early game I don’t know. Perhaps Soviets would be fine, but the revised Tommies might not fare as well.

I wouldn’t call it a buff, more of a reorganization.

As for the flat “are Riflemen op?” question, no I don’t think they are “op!!”, but they are very good at close range right now.
...

And the problem was the ST44 volks and not riflemen.

It all started with increasing the power level of Penal and VGs. Then instead of toning down these 2 units to the power level of these 2 units the majority of units received DPS/RA buffs.

Now the power level of infantry is so high that support weapon a build allot less and most games have the snowball effect.

Imo it high time that units start receiving nerfs instead of buffs.

And the problem was the ST44 volks and not riflemen.

It all started with increasing the power level of Penal and VGs. Then instead of toning down these 2 units to the power level of these 2 units the majority of units received DPS/RA buffs.

Now the power level of infantry is so high that support weapon a build allot less and most games have the snowball effect.

Imo it high time that units start receiving nerfs instead of buffs.

Inversely you could buff the support weapons. Lol

I agree with you that the “relative power” of things need to be equalized. The easiest way is probably to nerf a few units rather than buffing a whole lot of units, but the end result would be the same.

10 vs 20. 10 is too weak so buff it by ten then you have 20 vs 20.

10 vs 20. 20 is too strong so nerf it by 10 then you have 10 vs 10.

Of course it’s not that simple though.

One could simply make officer an upgrade to Riflemen.

Have you missed the part where relic doesn't allow removal of officer squads in any form?
That means no upgrades to existing squads.

Have you missed the part where relic doesn't allow removal of officer squads in any form?
That means no upgrades to existing squads.

Coming from you the same person who claimed that Relic will not introduce Calliope and Pershing I will keep an open mind.

Inversely you could buff the support weapons. Lol

I agree with you that the “relative power” of things need to be equalized. The easiest way is probably to nerf a few units rather than buffing a whole lot of units, but the end result would be the same.

10 vs 20. 10 is too weak so buff it by ten then you have 20 vs 20.

10 vs 20. 20 is too strong so nerf it by 10 then you have 10 vs 10.

Of course it’s not that simple though.

Yet there is fundamental difference if the power level of units is 10 then fight last 10 secs, if the power level is 20 fight last 5 second.

Having high power level creates a number of issues like snowballing, more brutal force less tactics combined arm and so on...

You are laterally complaining about a T2 scout car armed only with a .50 cal. Is there something you're lacking in your arsenal to deal with this?

the fucking m20 is immune to every inf gun on axis side. the acc, the flame truck - all loose energy to standard inf gun penetration by time, but the retarded m20 looses nothing. is his armor supposed to be the same luchs has ? yes ? then put the fuel cost to 60 ! if u can't rocket it or got an at gun ur fucking rekt ! and thats fucking insane armor for a 20 fuel shitcar which every braindead usf player can spam

the fucking m20 is immune to every inf gun on axis side. the acc, the flame truck - all loose energy to standard inf gun penetration by time, but the retarded m20 looses nothing. is his armor supposed to be the same luchs has ? yes ? then put the fuel cost to 60 ! if u can't rocket it or got an at gun ur fucking rekt ! and thats fucking insane armor for a 20 fuel shitcar which every braindead usf player can spam

Do you want it to have a firepower adequate to that cost of yours as well?
And its armor is much, much lower then luchs.
L2p and bring AT.

Do you want it to have a firepower adequate to that cost of yours as well?
And its armor is much, much lower then luchs.
L2p and bring AT.

bullshit answer, m20 in the right hands will bleed the shit out of ur inf before any at gun arrives on the field.
shit, i wish my ACC would also have the same armor to tell the allied players, L2p and bring AT instead of inf blob lmao

currently playing USF is the easiest way to win games in 4v4, thats why 99% of all games minimum 2 USF players are in

I completely disagree. If we compare them with volks, the Riflemans are much more expensive than 280/28 vs 260/25.

In this case, in comparison with the Volks, the Riflemans do not have:
1. Improving weapons without special technology costs (Weapon racks) A volks can get STG44 with the linear development of technologies that are not special separate costs.
2. The same goes for grenades. This is also a separate waste of man power and fuel. Volks have flame grenade from the start.
3. AT grenade tied to the vet. This is a big problem if in the middle of the game you lose your squad and it is useless even against light vehicles. Each new Riflemans comes without AT grenades, but each new volks has a faust.
4. The first vet does not give any buffs to combat characteristics. You get only At grenade. When the volks are already getting an improvement in target size.
5. Also the Riflemans do not have sand bags.
6. I don’t know for sure, but it seems that Riflemans have more vet requirements than volks. Accept or Disprove this item.

Rifles overperforming? Funny question. Yes, if you play only on the axis side.

I completely disagree. If we compare them with volks, the Riflemans are much more expensive than 280/28 vs 260/25.

In this case, in comparison with the Volks, the Riflemans do not have:
1. Improving weapons without special technology costs (Weapon racks) A volks can get STG44 with the linear development of technologies that are not special separate costs.
2. The same goes for grenades. This is also a separate waste of man power and fuel. Volks have flame grenade from the start.
3. AT grenade tied to the vet. This is a big problem if in the middle of the game you lose your squad and it is useless even against light vehicles. Each new Riflemans comes without AT grenades, but each new volks has a faust.
4. The first vet does not give any buffs to combat characteristics. You get only At grenade. When the volks are already getting an improvement in target size.
5. Also the Riflemans do not have sand bags.
6. I don’t know for sure, but it seems that Riflemans have more vet requirements than volks. Accept or Disprove this item.

Rifles overperforming? Funny question. Yes, if you play only on the axis side.

u back ? we missed our favorite allied fan boi

I completely disagree. If we compare them with volks, the Riflemans are much more expensive than 280/28 vs 260/25.

In this case, in comparison with the Volks, the Riflemans do not have:
1. Improving weapons without special technology costs (Weapon racks) A volks can get STG44 with the linear development of technologies that are not special separate costs.
2. The same goes for grenades. This is also a separate waste of man power and fuel. Volks have flame grenade from the start.
3. AT grenade tied to the vet. This is a big problem if in the middle of the game you lose your squad and it is useless even against light vehicles. Each new Riflemans comes without AT grenades, but each new volks has a faust.
4. The first vet does not give any buffs to combat characteristics. You get only At grenade. When the volks are already getting an improvement in target size.
5. Also the Riflemans do not have sand bags.
6. I don’t know for sure, but it seems that Riflemans have more vet requirements than volks. Accept or Disprove this item.

Rifles overperforming? Funny question. Yes, if you play only on the axis side.

You are forgetting that volks, who come with 2 sets of elite infantry, a light vehicle for every job and have 2/3 support weapons unlocked in T0 no matter how they tech are supposed to be more independent than rifles who can lean on support from rear echelons incredible fighting and support capacity or the ever useful unique abilities of "totally not just rifles with a Thompson" officers. Sure they need to tech 2 separate ways to get their arguably slightly exclusive team weapons and thus could bypass critical team weapons but they just arnt as independent.