Wehrmacht September patch discussion

the panzerwerfer is great for fighting vehicle and artillery spam... plus the only real arty that poses a threat to grens are either rocket arty... tanks scotts... or pack howis...

rocket arty can be suicided at by panzers along with scotts...tanks can be pushed back by AT guns... and the pack howi can be counterbatteried by the panzerwerfer...

the best strat to do when the enemy builds 2 SU/jacksons is to either

1. get MG-42s and creep em forward with panzerwerfers to kill enemy arty

2. creep grens forward but keep them separate to cap territory...

3. move the AT gun forward to dissuade tanks from killing ur stuff

4. laugh how at least 30% of their popcap is consumed by AT... while you counter em with basic infantry and artillery

Great in theory, anything but sound in practice. This sounds like a 4v4 strategy. How is this supposed to work on 90% of the 2v2 maps? Most of them are close quarters with many sight blockers, this teamplay strategy will get rekt easily...

How does this work if your enemy does the exact same thing, but with their superior infantry, rocket artillery and TDs?

They have no reason to build medium tanks because they get hard countered by the Panther lmao

Allied TD spam is the direct result of Axis heavy tank concentration, and that absolutely includes the Panther.

Well said. Very well said. 1000% agreed.

@modteam:

I like the changes to the 251 halftrack so far but i also think that the main problem of the unit is its cost if you dont want to upgrade it with the flamethrower upgrade. Additionally you can get for the same cost a 222 - both alternatives will always more attractive as long as the base version of the 251 is relatively expensive.

I want to suggest the following changes to make the base unit more attractive:

• Fuel price reduced to 20 or even 15 fuel
  
• Healing speed increased a little bit
  
• Cost for flamethrower upgrade increased:
  - mun costs same like before but additional fuel costs
  
  
  These changes would have the following benefits:
  
• The base version of the 251 would now be cheaper than the flamethrower version AND the 222
  
• Players who prefer the flamethrower version still have to pay the same price
  
  
  
  

The broken Grenadier first strike bonus needs to be fixed. The accuracy modifier is set to Exclusive, so it overrides the 40% accuracy bonus from vet 2.

I know that isn't strictly about the patch, but other units are getting First Strike bonuses, and this is a good opportunity to change it.

I cant complain about any of these changes but i have 2 suggestions:

Why not give the 251 a heal upgrade which makes it a ambulance instead of only healing squads garrisoned inside the halftrack?

Second, and i think a necessary change would be to make the ostheer puma in mobile def a call in again now that the command p4 is tied to tech. Otherwise the Commander will be utterly useless and nerfed out of existence. It also would offer a solid counter play to Greyhounds and the Valentine, which both are still call ins. With the all the nerfs this commander had received over the years and now the final command p4 change, this would allow the commander to stay relevant.
It used to over perform cause of the fluent transition from very good mobile at to a solid medium tank, which both were call ins back in the day. I dont think it will be OP again when only one of these vehicles is a call in, as we can see in the current meta.

I cant complain about any of these changes but i have 2 suggestions:

Why not give the 251 a heal upgrade which makes it a ambulance instead of only healing squads garrisoned inside the halftrack?

Second, and i think a necessary change would be to make the ostheer puma in mobile def a call in again now that the command p4 is tied to tech. Otherwise the Commander will be utterly useless and nerfed out of existence. It also would offer a solid counter play to Greyhounds and the Valentine, which both are still call ins. With the all the nerfs this commander had received over the years and now the final command p4 change, this would allow the commander to stay relevant.
It used to over perform cause of the fluent transition from very good mobile at to a solid medium tank, which both were call ins back in the day. I dont think it will be OP again when only one of these vehicles is a call in, as we can see in the current meta.

I think the Half track Idea would be cool, Currently ostheer doesn't have comparable and It would make the 251 a much more attractive option considering it costs ~400(350?) mp 45 fuel to field one you rush it, justifies having a bigger impact w/o flamer. At least in teamgames it would be fair to have something comparable to usf ambulance and as long as no forward retreat point + rewards good play/soft retreating.

For mobile defense I think that call in pumas would still relegate the commander to a puma panic button. Both the Ostruppen callin and the fast capping ability add nothing to the doctrine and quite frankly don't feel like "mobile defense", I would recommend these are changed to something like a 250 halftrack callin and something to the effect of "Ostheer combined arms" Like the pgren sprint buff or USF combined arms.

For puma callin I think giving it a buildtime is fair so it doesn't totally derail a light vehicle rush instantly after you pick the commander, but as you stated that is compared to other units still callin. Making the Puma buildable from HQ after t2 OR bp2 are up could help diversify strats a bit more while still requiring build time.

I think making the Puma build-able from the HQ after BP2 is researched would be an easy and balanced way of fixing the doctrine.

Great in theory, anything but sound in practice. This sounds like a 4v4 strategy. How is this supposed to work on 90% of the 2v2 maps? Most of them are close quarters with many sight blockers, this teamplay strategy will get rekt easily...

How does this work if your enemy does the exact same thing, but with their superior infantry, rocket artillery and TDs?

Not really... it tends to flop more in 4v4s where grens are vulnerable to the much higher artillery saturation..

Anyhoo it capitalizes on the fact that
1. Your rocket arty is significantly more likely to wipe than their rocket arty

2. The mg pushes forward while the grens screen it from flankers

3. The fact that they sunk alot of resources in TDs will make them deficient vs this infantry centric strategy

4. The counter is through medium tanks snipers rocket arty and their own mgs... but by sinking their fuel and popcap on 2 TDs theyve significantly reduced their medium tank and rocket arty presence... while their mgs and snipers are going to struggle against the panzerwerfer

Second, and i think a necessary change would be to make the ostheer puma in mobile def a call in again now that the command p4 is tied to tech.

I mean, that's certainly possible, but what would stop Ostheer from going right back into the Puma meta and call them in every single match? I personally agree that it was the techless AI tank follow up that was a bigger problem than the Puma, but reverting the Puma changes now would still risk seeing MobiDef almost every game again because it was simply Ostheer's most effective way of dealing with Allied lights. And seeing the same doctrine over and over wasn't fun at all. The Puma was Ostheer's Command Panther and everyone was sick of it too back then.

Something I would like to see is a rework for Grenadiers since every other infantry squad has benefited from the general power creep. I would like to see the bolster upgrade from German Infantry become a non-doctrinal upgrade for Grens after they build their Tier 3 or Battlephase 3. Replacing it within the doctrine could be a 3x G43 Package for 60 munitions. This upgrade could also replace the G43 upgrades within the other Ostheer commanders that contain it. If the upgrade proves to come slightly too early it could be pushed back to 3 Command Points to prevent too much G43 spam in the early game.

I mean, that's certainly possible, but what would stop Ostheer from going right back into the Puma meta and call them in every single match? I personally agree that it was the techless AI tank follow up that was a bigger problem than the Puma, but reverting the Puma changes now would still risk seeing MobiDef almost every game again because it was simply Ostheer's most effective way of dealing with Allied lights. And seeing the same doctrine over and over wasn't fun at all. The Puma was Ostheer's Command Panther and everyone was sick of it too back then.

I think making the Puma build-able from the HQ after BP2 is researched would be an easy and balanced way of fixing the doctrine.

Mobile defense thread I made if anyone cares, it's a good canidate for a rework if they do another after sept. https://www.coh2.org/topic/95759/ostheer-mobile-defense-rework

I mean, that's certainly possible, but what would stop Ostheer from going right back into the Puma meta and call them in every single match? I personally agree that it was the techless AI tank follow up that was a bigger problem than the Puma, but reverting the Puma changes now would still risk seeing MobiDef almost every game again because it was simply Ostheer's most effective way of dealing with Allied lights. And seeing the same doctrine over and over wasn't fun at all. The Puma was Ostheer's Command Panther and everyone was sick of it too back then.

I agree: the Puma's position isn't ideal but there also isn't really anywhere else to put it. The synergy with 30 FU anti-infantry light vehicles is just too much.

However, I am concerned that the changes to the Command Tank will kill off the Puma's last role: working with the Command Tank to skip T3.

Have you considered locking the Command Tank behind Battle Phase 2 instead? That prevents it from being used as a techless call-in, but still allows it to be used to go straight for T4.

Alternatively, you could return it to CP5 and paint 'Command Puma' on the turret. Limiting it to one allows it to be countered with superior numbers.

Not really... it tends to flop more in 4v4s where grens are vulnerable to the much higher artillery saturation..

Anyhoo it capitalizes on the fact that
1. Your rocket arty is significantly more likely to wipe than their rocket arty

2. The mg pushes forward while the grens screen it from flankers

3. The fact that they sunk alot of resources in TDs will make them deficient vs this infantry centric strategy

4. The counter is through medium tanks snipers rocket arty and their own mgs... but by sinking their fuel and popcap on 2 TDs theyve significantly reduced their medium tank and rocket arty presence... while their mgs and snipers are going to struggle against the panzerwerfer

1. What? Panzerwerfer more likely to wipe than katty, priest, landmattress or calliope? What game do you play?

2 & 3. You fight superior infantry, supported by indirect fire. You have 4 models, your field presence will melt.

4. You seem to think their infantry is something that is not to be thought about? Every mainline infantry unit, excluding cons and thus penals, is superior to grens in survivability and late game scaling lol. You will get rekt in the late game with grens vs indirect and infantry blobs.

Gbem we have been over this, kat and pwefer have equal chance to wipe as kat second salvo will land before pwefer rockets

Command Panzer IV
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Imo the changes to this units will make it obsolete.

1) The unit has no reason to have both Tech and CP requirement. That is reserved for super heavy units. One of the two should go.

2) The units AT is almost non existent while it AI is not superior to standard Panzer IV especially since it does not get a pintle MG. Replace the gun with one Stug -E used and allow HEAT round stat have low penetration but do deflection damage

3) The aura bonus nerf is unnecessary currently 2 stand PzIVs are usually better option should be redesigned to work similar OKW C.Panther and scale with veterancy. One could also split auras in 1 passive +1 active

4) The unit vets slow XP value should be lowered.

Command Panzer IV
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I think it can be tied to tech and CP if it's a good enough unit.

The current Command Tank is: it has awful combat stats, but that's because its value is in its excellent aura.

If it gets the aura nerf though, I think it's dead: 0.9 is by no means bad but it's not enough to make up for the damage output you sacrifice to get it.

I can see why the aura looks too strong on paper: it adds a full two extra 160 dmg hits to kill to a Panther. But you've got to remember that the Command Tank is replacing another medium vehicle which would be contributing damage of its own.

What's more powerfu;: a Command Tank and a Panther, or a Panzer IV and a Panther? For the Command Tank to be worthwhile, it's got to be the better option in at least a few cases.

I think it can be tied to tech and CP if it's a good enough unit.

The current Command Tank is: it has awful combat stats, but that's because its value is in its excellent aura.

If it gets the aura nerf though, I think it's dead: 0.9 is by no means bad but it's not enough to make up for the damage output you sacrifice to get it.

I can see why the aura looks too strong on paper: it adds a full two extra 160 dmg hits to kill to a Panther. But you've got to remember that the Command Tank is replacing another medium vehicle which would be contributing damage of its own.

What's more powerfu;: a Command Tank and a Panther, or a Panzer IV and a Panther? For the Command Tank to be worthwhile, it's got to be the better option in at least a few cases.

I find the Command tanks best use is to just follow around king tigers and elephants to make them unkillable. It's pretty marginal as a choice for improving your own army composition because as you stated the combat stats are so poor, especially competing with the ostwind + brumbar for AI.

I think it should have less purpose buffing allied units and more of a focus on being combat effective(or at least efficient). You will likely only have 2-4 vehicles at a time in a game so 1 of them being highly cost ineffective must make up for it in huge ways.

I think it can be tied to tech and CP if it's a good enough unit.

It can but there is no reason it should be. CP and tech is reserved for Super heavies and the C.PzIV simply does not qualify.

Units like KV-8 already get only tech restrictions and an aura.

If CP4 becomes 110 fuel with no CP requirement and the weaker aura, the Command Panzer 4 would be a tempting offer over the Ostwind. Currently it's often not an option at all because it comes so late at 9 CP, when there are already multiple tanks on the field. The 7 CP in the preview also seems too late if you want it as first tank.

Versus Ostwind you would trade some AI for much better scaling, considering you get:

- Much better armor. Ostwind has 110 armor, while CP4 has 180/234 armor.
- Better AT than the Ostwind, especially on the move. E.g. CP4 can duel a Valentine, Ostwind can't.
- Damage reduction (Good to protect infantry against indirect and to save vehicles)
- Better AI than a P4 without pintle, comparable AI to a P4 with pintle (depends on situation).

I mean, that's certainly possible, but what would stop Ostheer from going right back into the Puma meta and call them in every single match? I personally agree that it was the techless AI tank follow up that was a bigger problem than the Puma, but reverting the Puma changes now would still risk seeing MobiDef almost every game again because it was simply Ostheer's most effective way of dealing with Allied lights. And seeing the same doctrine over and over wasn't fun at all. The Puma was Ostheer's Command Panther and everyone was sick of it too back then.

Currently the puma comes too late to counter any light vehicle, so something needs to be done to keep the commander atleast playable. (I mean, whats the point in creating new commander when almost every patch kills a commander?)
Give it a 5CP requirement and can be build from t2 for example.

"...but what would stop Ostheer from going right back into the Puma meta and call them in every single match?"
Even back then, mobi def had a horrible late game, Unlike the equivalent allied 5CP call in commander which have good off-maps and other usefull abilities. With the command p4 nerf, Mobi def has legit nothing to offer late game, tac smoke maybe but thats it. You have to choose between a solid mid game at and a strong late game commander.

Worst case when the puma is a call in or t2 vehicle: back to the old meta (which would be alot weaker than it used to be)
But what would you rather see: okw only like currently or atleast some variety in axis plays?