Jackson - jast light version of the Panther :)

ah of course the holy "high lvl meta" just make a game for 50 people. and the other 8000 just l2p.

We have to balance for the skill ceiling. It's impossible to balance the game around the average player. Balancing for the higher level means eliminating as many outside influences (wrong use of units, bad micro, not using abilities, etc etc) as possible, so the tools that players get to work with are themselves as balanced as possible.

And in the higher level team games, Elefants are dominating the meta, and other Axis heavies are used quite often too. So to get back to your original point, yes the USF does need the Jackson to be strong in order to deal with them as they do not have much else.

Also, the game has way more than 8000 active players.
https://steamcharts.com/app/231430#7d

Ignore the moving accuracy. It's just there to make it seem like an Panther with half health and -100 % armor. Remember that it's have low armor. It can destroy even Puma.

An M36 + HVAP at maximum range has 250 penetration, and 300 at closest range. Vs. A JT's 525 frontal armor, that's still just 47.6% (max range) to 57.1% (min range) to penetrate the frontal armor. I think it's safe to say that the frontal attack isn't what's intended with those odds. Meanwhile, we're comparing an incredibly slow tank with no turret to one of the fastest tanks in the game, that does have a turret.

As I said before, the frontal armor can be countered by flanking, immobilization and off-map. The JT's rear armor is actually lower than the M36's front armor, so it's a pretty clear weak spot. Speed, moving accuracy, and range though? There's not a lot of counters for that:

First, you need to get in range of the M36, but...
A Panther will need to be 10 units (meters?) closer to fire at the M36

Then you need to stay in range, but....
A Panther will never catch an M36, since the M36 is faster and has better acceleration

Then you need to actually hit, but...
A Panther will hit the M36 50% less when moving

Then, on top of that, the M36 also has a slightly higher RoF at vet 0, and a 15% bonus at vet 3.

You can see how those three things combine to make the panther nearly useless vs. the M36, provided the USF player can micro well.


By comparison, imagine if the Puma was noticeably faster than the M36, had 10 more range, and higher moving accuracy. Even though it's far weaker in terms of armor/HP compared to the M36, I think most would agree that such a unit would be horrendously overpowered, since almost nothing could touch it.

Like I said, the moving accuracy and range it's necessary against Panther, because Panther have 100% more armor +10% vet, and 50% more health. HVAP necessary against King/Jagd Tigers. Or do you want the USF to always take risks by going to the rear of tanks that have more armor/health? When all volksgrenadiers have a faust. As well as a disguised raketenwerfer 43, which is always in ambush. You want an easy game man.

So there's a few points here.

Firstly, no, you don't need the moving accuracy. The M36 already has range and speed, those two things combined should be enough when well micro'd. The moving accuracy just means the USF player needs to do even less, since there's no need to stop to fire accurately.

Secondly, 260 armor vs. 220 pen at maximum range gives a 84.6% ((260/220)x100=84.6) chance to penetrate; that's really good. The munitions cost, vet requirement, etc. for HVAP isn't really worth it, imo. Even with Panther's vet, you're looking at 77% chance to penetrate.

Thirdly, like I said above, it's pretty clear that frontal attacks aren't designed to work vs. JTs, as your best case is a 57.1% chance to do any damage.

And of course, lastly, cover your tanks with infantry - that's the point of combined arms. Volks are good, but not better than double BAR riflemen, or M1919 Paras, etc. Also the Raketten has a pretty good chance to hit the ground anyway, and has pretty short range. Unless the OKW player is massing them, they're not a huge risk.


Also of note, your chart in your OP is missing moving accuracy and speed, two stats that are critical to its strength, as well as the pretty significant cost differences, differences in population, and the USF's ability to decrew their vehicles, allowing for a bunch of interesting gameplay mechanics.

"USF has the least amount of stock tools available to them out of any army and theyre the most micro intensive."

Also, the game has way more than 8000 active players.
https://steamcharts.com/app/231430#7d

(offtopic inc, please no nazi moddism as its important ot)


That's concurrent players, not active players.

Without going much into details(as I don't believe more then a handful people here can handle that injection of knowledge without having their head explode) concurrent players can be easily multiplied by 10 to estimate daily unique active players and that amount can be doubled/trippled for monthly active unique players.

So assuming lowest of lows, there are ~160.000 players playing the game during a month.

But it is, you need to open your point of view, not simply show it.
Did you compared those "objective" values that show Jacksons overperforming? No, you just showed jacksons as mini panthers, wich is wrong by definition, both tanks are different, role and design wise. Therefore there is no productive comparation unless you take ALL the details.

I showed the numbers, skipped only one point related to accuracy in movement. At the expense of magical HPAV, I also explained. Objectively, there can be no complaints against Jackson when you have the Panther and the Tigers. And you just brought your subjective opinion, for example, "panthers should be more than enough to take out allied heavies reliably and effectively, with doesnt happen."

No, its happen. I dont agree. Panthers easily destroy usf medium and even "heavy" pershing tank. Panthers can push your line, destroy your tanks and go back. This because of high armor and health. Jacksons can't this. They will be quickly destroyed. Especially when an hidden Raketenwerfer is ambushed. With such a massive offensive, armor and health already play a role, and not the accuracy of movement. What was demonstrated at the 2v2 masters cup.

We can debate for a very long time. Therefore, I gave the numbers and percentages.

I showed the numbers, skipped only one point related to accuracy in movement. At the expense of magical HPAV, I also explained. Objectively, there can be no complaints against Jackson when you have the Panther and the Tigers. And you just brought your subjective opinion, for example, "panthers should be more than enough to take out allied heavies reliably and effectively, with doesnt happen."

No, its happen. I dont agree. Panthers easily destroy usf medium and even "heavy" pershing tank. Panthers can push your line, destroy your tanks and go back. This because of high armor and health. Jacksons can't this. They will be quickly destroyed. Especially when an hidden Raketenwerfer is ambushed. With such a massive offensive, armor and health already play a role, and not the accuracy of movement. What was demonstrated at the 2v2 masters cup.

We can debate for a very long time. Therefore, I gave the numbers and percentages.

Given that these people actually think the bazooka constitutes a viable counter to the Panther ("muh combined arms"), I'm not sure you're going to find balance discussion with them to be very productive.

We can debate for a very long time. Therefore, I gave the numbers and percentages.

You missed moving accuracy in your OP, but you did at least acknowledge later, but you're still missing:

Top speed/acceleration
Price difference
Pop difference
USF Vehicle crew bonuses/tricks (self repair, getting out to force target changes, exceeding popcap, etc.)



Also, I pretty extensively showed the issues with the M36 further up the page.

Op be like “let’s just compare the thing that give advantage to panther “
Is this one of those meme comparisons like GF and Skyrim ?

Btw do u think there is only USF okw and ost in the game ?

Is 2 , isu , comet etc have lot of armor (is 2 same as kt)

I know muh America and school shootings are important but there are other tanks other than the USF ones , panther needs to be able to pen those too

I agree. The jackson is a bit better in the anti tank department due to better moving accuracy, higher range and less cost, but the panther makes up for it with much better anti infantry (pintle mount mg42) and much better durability.

The Jackson deserves a small cost increase to 150 or 155 fuel but other than that it's fine in my book.

Remove crew repairs from jackson (like pershing) and it should be fine. People forget how much field presence it provides.

(offtopic inc, please no nazi moddism as its important ot)

That's concurrent players, not active players.

Without going much into details(as I don't believe more then a handful people here can handle that injection of knowledge without having their head explode) concurrent players can be easily multiplied by 10 to estimate daily unique active players and that amount can be doubled/trippled for monthly active unique players.

So assuming lowest of lows, there are ~160.000 players playing the game during a month.

Very much correct, I just couldn't be bothered typing that up. I assumed that graphs showing 6000-8000 concurrent players peaks would naturally prove the game has a way bigger total amount of players, as that is only logical.

We have to balance for the skill ceiling. It's impossible to balance the game around the average player. Balancing for the higher level means eliminating as many outside influences (wrong use of units, bad micro, not using abilities, etc etc) as possible, so the tools that players get to work with are themselves as balanced as possible.

And in the higher level team games, Elefants are dominating the meta, and other Axis heavies are used quite often too. So to get back to your original point, yes the USF does need the Jackson to be strong in order to deal with them as they do not have much else.

Also, the game has way more than 8000 active players.
https://steamcharts.com/app/231430#7d

1. than this whole discussion is senseless. just put the top 50 players in a room and let them dictate what the balance look like. #balanceforumclosed

2. than pls what should i do with paks and mines and zooks .. and the offmaps and planes...
They have many tooles but the jackson is just a no brainer.
Why mines and paks or zook flanking when u can fight on even JT's frontaly.

u see them in every game ... its like the old guard motor times "US style"

as i remember in the beginning of WFA the jacksons were pure glas cannons wich died of 2 shots..but know they just nomral tanks with some "special parameters"



No, its happen. I dont agree. Panthers easily destroy usf medium and even "heavy" pershing tank. Panthers can push your line, destroy your tanks and go back. This because of high armor and health. Jacksons can't this. They will be quickly destroyed. Especially when an hidden Raketenwerfer is ambushed. With such a massive offensive, armor and health already play a role, and not the accuracy of movement. What was demonstrated at the 2v2 masters cup.

We can debate for a very long time. Therefore, I gave the numbers and percentages.

so thats exactly what happend in ww2 ... "oh wait a panther/Tiger is better than a sherman ? how the hell!" but i watched Fury so much

maybe u bring more tanks and go with combiend arms but hey just get jacksons and win.

Very much correct, I just couldn't be bothered typing that up. I assumed that graphs showing 6000-8000 concurrent players peaks would naturally prove the game has a way bigger total amount of players, as that is only logical.

Heh, I wish people would understand that.
Unfortunately, they literally never do and always assume CCU=DAU/MAU

Try to actually compare it to the su 85 a TD from the Soviet, u can instantly tell why people think it deserve a nerf

1. than this whole discussion is senseless. just put the top 50 players in a room and let them dictate what the balance look like. #balanceforumclosed

You should realize that the game balance is currently managed by a community team, consisting partly of some top level players (with connections to other top level players), doing exactly that, and it has (at least in my somewhat biased opinion, but most players seem to agree) brought the balance into the best state it's ever been (with still a long way to go ofcourse).

The balance forums are still a great platform to look for ideas, get feedback on changes, and get a better feel for what is bothering the wider community. But it's impossible to put every complaint on the forums into a balance patch, and when deciding what goes in and what doesn't, the top level meta is usually leading because as I said before, that meta is the purest and has the least amount of external influence (such as player errors) clouding the actual internal balance.

You missed moving accuracy in your OP, but you did at least acknowledge later, but you're still missing:

Top speed/acceleration
Price difference
Pop difference
USF Vehicle crew bonuses/tricks (self repair, getting out to force target changes, exceeding popcap, etc.)



Also, I pretty extensively showed the issues with the M36 further up the page.

What bonuses are we talking about? Again about the HVAP, aren't you tired? But I'm tired

Panther on average is better in other respects.
Speed - 6.6 | Acceleration - 2.4 (3.1 vet3) | Rotate 30 (36 vet3) | Accuracy far: 0.35 | (0.44 vet5) | Reload duration 5.2 - 5.6 (3.64 - 3.92 vet3) (2.55 - 2.74 vet5)
Jackson:
Speed - 6.5 Acceleration - 3 | Rotate 30 | Accuracy far: 0.35 (0.46 vet3) Reload duration 4.38 - 4.97 (2.98 - 3.38 vet3)

At 1-3 vets, Jackson's penetration increase significantly. But this is still not enough against Jagdtiger. But the panther also gets more armor. Sherman E8 (Rifle Company) did not just penetrate Panther vet1 (Standart Army) many times. And again, Jackson was needed.

The price difference I have already wrote (1 page). And this is ridiculous compared to the difference in armor and health.

Excuse me. If I messed up the numbers, you can correct it.

Again compare it to an actual TD like stug , jp4 or su 85 or ff not a tank hunter like the panther

Firstly, no, you don't need the moving accuracy. The M36 already has range and speed, those two things combined should be enough when well micro'd. The moving accuracy just means the USF player needs to do even less, since there's no need to stop to fire accurately.

Secondly, 260 armor vs. 220 pen at maximum range gives a 84.6% ((260/220)x100=84.6) chance to penetrate; that's really good. The munitions cost, vet requirement, etc. for HVAP isn't really worth it, imo. Even with Panther's vet, you're looking at 77% chance to penetrate.

Thirdly, like I said above, it's pretty clear that frontal attacks aren't designed to work vs. JTs, as your best case is a 57.1% chance to do any damage.

And of course, lastly, cover your tanks with infantry - that's the point of combined arms. Volks are good, but not better than double BAR riflemen, or M1919 Paras, etc. Also the Raketten has a pretty good chance to hit the ground anyway, and has pretty short range. Unless the OKW player is massing them, they're not a huge risk.


Also of note, your chart in your OP is missing moving accuracy and speed, two stats that are critical to its strength, as well as the pretty significant cost differences, differences in population, and the USF's ability to decrew their vehicles, allowing for a bunch of interesting gameplay mechanics.

Again subjective opinion. I don't need your advice, I can give you advice against Jackson too.

Moving accuracy is a must. Jackson cannot stand against panther and tigers, it has 100% less armor and 50% health. Jackson must always be on the move in order to survive. I remind you of this many times.

It has 60 range , why do think su 85 and ff work vs panther ?

but why ? u have also Paks and mines and u can equip all inf with zooks and offmap if u want too.
maybe u just have to develop a combiend arms tactic.
And not the standart infs spam into Jacksons ...where 0 micro is required.

in 1v1 and 2v2 u just NEVER see a JT or an Elefant.

U see only panthers in axis lategame because it is the only stock Tank that is not useless when it hits the field.

LOL if any tank takes less micro it is the panther. Especially with things in docts giving it forgive me smoke, and backwards super blitz. I cannot think of ANY tank in the game that is more forgiving than the panther as far as not paying for mistakes. Too much hp, armor, speed it literally has 9 lives and the command panther has 14 lives.

Also i probably literally have THOUSANDS more games than you in 2v2, You see the elephant or jagd in about half of all 2v2s i play. Maybe a little less now that fusilers and tiger doct is used a lot but not that much. They also gave fusilers with jagdtiger shrek options which was about the dumbest thing in the world when they already gave jagd AI shells and never decreased its range like the elephant so it can counter the 17 pdr which is retarded as well as nuke infantry.

Yes because I cannot afford to equip all my infantry with zooks, that is about the dumbest thing ive heard that way I have 0 AI maybe axis infantry an mg will let me just walk past them. For usf to be able to fight okw infantry especially rifles they have to have double bars.

That being said with out the jackson in its current state USF or a team with USF would get screwed almost every 2v2. Brumbar would also screw USF and it already does that well with current jackson in 2v2.

The reason you see panther spam in late game sometimes is because it can be more effective rushing allied TDs with if done right.

And just so you know in 2v2 whats more hilarious is usually if me and my partner manage to take out a jagd or elephant. Another one pops right out and your back to square one. Ive also seen ost many times able to field an elephant and a panther at the same time.

Really, you don't need M36s for any of those. Each of those can be beaten easily by a few well controlled Easy8s, with the additional bonus of having good AI power. Also, the KT/JT are both 720mp/280f units, limited to one at a time, and (for the JT) locked to a doctrine - they're going to be pretty strong.

ummm no too bad they have other infantry I have to get through to reach the jagd clear in the back field that all have snares. The axis player isnt stupid hes going to have cloaked raks nearby probably sturms with shreks, or thanks to some retarded reason fusilers with shreks and snares, maybe even other tanks. Can it be done? sure if they are going to let my ez8s circle it all day lol? but not really plausible. IMO all the shermans are too damn slow especially ez8 and mech 76. Any axis supporting units are capable of one volleying an ez8 with focus fire by time one takes 1 or 2 shots.