Possible commander revamp candidates

Even if you did somehow perfectly balance every commander against each other, you'd still have everyone copying the commanders the streamers like.

Not sure what your argument here is, that we should stop trying to balance commanders and simply convince streamer to use more commanders?

Commander are not of the same power level, that is a fact. Bringing to the similar power level with in the same faction will improve the game.

That is correct but even you buff the defensive tactics commander to 100% power level it will still see little use because their will be other OP commanders.

Imo revamping is not the appropriate way to increase the meta commanders. There are commander that simply have very powerful ability combination, there abilities that are simply UP or OP and there are commander that actually need a revamp.

My point here is simple, since Relic has chosen to do revamps revamping OP commander at this stage is far more effective in increasing the meta commanders than revamping a UP commander.

I'm inclined to disagree. I'd sooner have them all brought up to 100% now and the 120% brought down after. Sure those that are only playing to win will still use the 120%s but those of us that play for fun will have a vast library of viable options to chose from. Nerf the 150%s while addressing the 20%s at the same time if possible. Bring them all closer within a certain spread and then closer still because what constitutes 100% now might not in a few patches time, better to have them all somewhat viable than some not at all

I'm inclined to disagree. I'd sooner have them all brought up to 100% now and the 120% brought down after. Sure those that are only playing to win will still use the 120%s but those of us that play for fun will have a vast library of viable options to chose from. Nerf the 150%s while addressing the 20%s at the same time if possible. Bring them all closer within a certain spread and then closer still because what constitutes 100% now might not in a few patches time, better to have them all somewhat viable than some not at all

I am not sure I understand your point of view. The sooner OP commanders that are used in the majority of game are nerfed the faster underlying balance issues will appear.

A classic example of this issue is the Dhsk performance. The unit was OP for years yet so little use because there more attractive commander. One might believe that he has brought a commander to the appropriate level but until the a commander has been tested thousand of time and every possible exploit has been tested one simply can not be sure.

The idea is simply nerf one OP commander can make several commanders meta. Buffing a single commander will have far less impact since it might actually see no use even if is brought to 100% power level.

OKW
luftwaffe groundforce : already revamped and no need to change

breakthrough : need some change for strum officer, swapping strumtiger and Jadtiger will be good

strum officer : delete retreat penalty and move to 1cp->2cp, cost 280mp->300mp
add veterancy and received accuracy -9%

vet1 : unlock motar barrage
vet2 : accuracy +20% and reload - 20%,
vet3 : enhance passive buff (accuracy +10% ->14%, reload time -9% -> 15%)
vet4 : passive buff now can adjust to vehicles
vet5 : received accuracy -15%


WEH
no need to revamp commander but need to change railway artillery

railway artillery : Change like a 240mm howitzer barrage(USF)


SOVIET
Defensive tactics

merge two skill(PMD-6 mine and tank trap) and add soviet bunker

soviet bunker can upgrade MG or medic


conscript support tactics

delete kv1 and put in IS-2


USF
rifle company

merge two skill(sprin+flare) and name it rifleman advance tactics

add HVAP swapping to Ez8

0cp) Ez8
0cp) assault engineer
2cp) rifleman advance tactics
3cp) M1919 lmg

5cp) forward observation artillery
lieutenant and captain can use rapid barrage(need to unlock major)
lieutenant and captain and major can use white phosphorous barrage


UKF
Vanguard operation

Forward Logistics Glider cost 540MP ->360P 40muni

add FLG fortification upgrade(250mp) : unlock retreat point and medical support, increase glider HP(400 -> 560) and armor (5->15)
FLG glider now can be repair

OKW
luftwaffe groundforce : already revamped and no need to change

I gotta disagree with that by looking at poorly performing falls and lackluster airstrike that comes way too late.

USF
rifle company

merge two skill(sprin+flare) and name it rifleman advance tactics

add HVAP swapping to Ez8

0cp) Ez8
0cp) assault engineer
2cp) rifleman advance tactics
3cp) M1919 lmg

5cp) forward observation artillery
lieutenant and captain can use rapid barrage(need to unlock major)
lieutenant and captain and major can use white phosphorous barrage

Those changes will put all other USF commanders to dumpster IMO.

Other than those two I think your suggestions are quite good.

I am not sure I understand your point of view. The sooner OP commanders that are used in the majority of game are nerfed the faster underlying balance issues will appear.

A classic example of this issue is the Dhsk performance. The unit was OP for years yet so little use because there more attractive commander. One might believe that he has brought a commander to the appropriate level but until the a commander has been tested thousand of time and every possible exploit has been tested one simply can not be sure.

The idea is simply nerf one OP commander can make several commanders meta. Buffing a single commander will have far less impact since it might actually see no use even if is brought to 100% power level.

Tbh I don't even think the DSHK was OP given its cost and timing. The issu was in the Soviet core, that at that time there was not a single unit that performed as Frontline infantry thus the DSHK was over used. I know you cite the close DPS but that's not a realistic metric given the function of an MG
The gun now is not worth picking a doctrine for as it's far to expensive to use with penals and cons are absolutely not an option (save for the new commander that allows cons to be, but even then you have really strong guards infantry)


Other commanders are not meta not because they are overshadowed, but because they are lacking. With the lone exception of spec ops because why the fuck would you not want uncountable recon and a no tech call in panther? But I have it on good authority that it won't be changed because despite all the tools at their desposal from elite infantry, to every flavor and price point of AT to defensive tech buildings okw wouldnt be competative without having a cheese commander and it's far easier to leave a crutch that ignores all the rules of the game than address the problems at hand.

Tbh I don't even think the DSHK was OP given its cost and timing...

Dhsk was OP like hell. Had something like 80 DPS per second and extremely fast traverse. Simply check the number of nerfs it had to receive.

DShK 38 HMG
The DShK is being adjusted to be less potent in terms of raw suppression and damage to match its appropriate cost.

Reinforcement cost from 15 to 20
Traverse speed from 90 to 38
Suppression from 0.00044 to 0.003
Rate of fire from 2.1/1.5/0.9 to 1.3/1.15/0.9
Set-up from 2 to 2.25
Fire aim time from 0.125/1 to 0.125/0.5
Ready aim time from 0.375/0.5 to 0.25
Population from 6 to 7

that is 6 nerfs

Dhsk was OP like hell. Had something like 80 DPS per second and extremely fast traverse. Simply check the number of nerfs it had to receive.

DShK 38 HMG
The DShK is being adjusted to be less potent in terms of raw suppression and damage to match its appropriate cost.

Reinforcement cost from 15 to 20
Traverse speed from 90 to 38
Suppression from 0.00044 to 0.003
Rate of fire from 2.1/1.5/0.9 to 1.3/1.15/0.9
Set-up from 2 to 2.25
Fire aim time from 0.125/1 to 0.125/0.5
Ready aim time from 0.375/0.5 to 0.25
Population from 6 to 7

that is 6 nerfs

Most of the nerfs had to do with close range, which again mattered little due to the nature of mgs.

Also nun er of nerfs accounts for nothing as the only thing reliable about the patch cycle is over nerfing. If you will recall when penals Got buffed the maxim got tripled and the patch before that yielded nerfs for it as well securing its spot as an absolute piece of garbage.

Regardless, this is off topic.

Here's some visual representations that I whipped up for potential revamps most of the commanders mentioned here, just a note however that these are just my opinions together with other ideas that I've seen from people.

Revamped Festung Support doctrine, based on Smartie's idea of having the Granatwerfer 42 and Forward Supply Station from my Hungarian support doctrine idea, also replaced the Reserves with a proper Osttruppen squad, could also probably be replaced by the Ostruppen reserves of Mobile Defense:



Revamped Luftwaffe Supply doctrine, included the suggested Luftwaffe officer instead of the recon, replaced the air drop with Supply drop from the Osttruppen doctrine to give it some more combat utility and finally the Fallschirmjägers, a good opportunity to add them to the Ostheer finally:



Revamped USF Rifle Company, based entirely on my own opinion:



Revamped OKW Luftwaffe Ground Forces doctrine, based on popular community ideas like the Ostwind and I then combined that with basing it off of the Panzer Elite Luftwaffe tactics from CoH:



I didn't know what to do with Breakthrough besides the aforementioned tweaks to the Sturmoffizier and replacing the Sturmtiger with a StuG III E maybe so I instead did a small revamp for the Fortifications doctrine, based on my Atlantic Wall doctrine idea coupled with some community ideas:



And finally we have the British Special Weapons Regiment, decided to give the much loved mortar from the new and brilliantly designed if I may so myself Lend-Lease Assault Regiment and Crew Repairs, I have no other ideas on what to replace the Hold the Line ability with:



As far as the Soviets go, I have an idea with the MG nests and trenches/anti-tank ditches for the Defensive tactics but I sadly lack the assets to make it. Same goes for the Lend-Lease one.

Unsure about Festung Support, I mean it's ok in it's current state imo. I always end up failing to activate Relief Infantry ("dam, lost tons of infantry, should have had it on..."), but it's rather a l2p issue for me I guess.
The mortar ht is a must have in the doctrine imo, I mean it sets up faster, more durable in mortar duels and those flame shells come handy at locking a vp.
If any change has to be done about the commander, then I say it should be the addition of some sort of recon option to spot for the mortars and artillery.

As for Luftwaffe Supply doctrine, the fuel/muni drop should stay, it's one of the doctrine's major selling point even now (seen a video, where this ability was used to summon a KT for an OKW player at 15 mins). Another thing I'm unsure about is whether the Luftwaffe field officer should have the recon call on him or the incendiary bombing. I mean any ability on the officer would have limited range obviously, but would be cheaper too. Personally I would prefer Recon staying as a commander slot ability, so it could be used anywhere on the map, in conjunction with the 50 kg bomb.

On the OKW Fortification doctrine I don't think ostruppen are necessary. The commander is mainly used in larger team games, where ostruppen dont give much advantage over volks. Also they are called Osttruppen for a reason.
Maybe Volkssturm, but again, not necessary imo.

Unsure about Festung Support, I mean it's ok in it's current state imo. I always end up failing to activate Relief Infantry ("dam, lost tons of infantry, should have had it on..."), but it's rather a l2p issue for me I guess.
The mortar ht is a must have in the doctrine imo, I mean it sets up faster, more durable in mortar duels and those flame shells come handy at locking a vp.
If any change has to be done about the commander, then I say it should be the addition of some sort of recon option to spot for the mortars and artillery.

As for Luftwaffe Supply doctrine, the fuel/muni drop should stay, it's one of the doctrine's major selling point even now (seen a video, where this ability was used to summon a KT for an OKW player at 15 mins). Another thing I'm unsure about is whether the Luftwaffe field officer should have the recon call on him or the incendiary bombing. I mean any ability on the officer would have limited range obviously, but would be cheaper too. Personally I would prefer Recon staying as a commander slot ability, so it could be used anywhere on the map, in conjunction with the 50 kg bomb.

On the OKW Fortification doctrine I don't think ostruppen are necessary. The commander is mainly used in larger team games, where ostruppen dont give much advantage over volks. Also they are called Osttruppen for a reason.
Maybe Volkssturm, but again, not necessary imo.

Relief Infantry is just a bad and counter-intuitive ability in a game where unit preservation is encouraged, this is basically the direct opposite of it. That's why I suggested a very long time ago it be replaced with just straight Osttruppen, or Osttruppen Reserves from Mobile Defense, whatever to me really.

Mortar HT is good, yes, I agree, but Festung in German means Fortress, so the mobile mortar HT... doesn't really fit in with the theme or make sense. A 120mm Granatwerfer 42 would make more sense in my opinion and would be something new and unique for the Germans, something to hit back against the Soviet HM-38 is just on my nerves constantly because every Soviet player and their grandmother goes Guard Motor-Coordination tactics or whatever the hell it's name was with the T34/85 and HM-38, Guards and Self-repair.

As far as the Luftwaffe doctrine, the Supply drop still provides fuel and ammo in 2 crates that go along with the weapon drops, it's just not as much as the supply drop, which is also still present in the Close Air Support doctrine as well which I'd say is more popular than this one. It's also meant to maybe give Fallschirmjägers some power in their incursions. No idea about what Abilities the Luftwaffe Officer should have, I'm guessing maybe Recon and Medical supply drop or something, whatever to me really, I just think it's a good idea and fits in with the theme. And 50kg bomb could be instead of the napalm, again entirely to opinion, it was just in the 3rd slot so I replaced it.

And lastly, like I already said, the Fortifications changes are based on my idea of the Atlantic Wall defenses where they were mostly manned by reserve and foreign troops, something which the Osttruppen portray well. It makes sense for me because of the additional building options, Volks will lose their ability to build so only Sturmpioneers and the Osttruppen will be able to do so. Just cheap troops to defend a line, nothing more.

I really like the two Luftwaffe doctrines. For the Wher one, I think that the officer could come at 0 cps with say a 3 minute cooldown, so you could get him instead of a gren, but not rush the unit. Or they could just add some luftwaffe abilities like "call recon plane" instead of the normal officer. Abilities unlocked by tech could also add more to the unit if he comes at 0 cps. I think officers need some changes to become a buy almost every game unit, which they should be if they are a unique part of your doctrine.

On OKW, i think Valliant assault would be much better than flak emplacements, it would be fair for all 5 factions to have essentially a "buff infantry" button for 70 munis. It is a bit silly that sector assault airplanes are like twice as good as the actual luftwaffe doctrine airplanes.

For Ostruppen, The mobile reserve ones are exactly the same as normal ostruppen but cost more and come at 3 cps . They NEED changes.

For Ostruppen, The mobile reserve ones are exactly the same as normal ostruppen but cost more and come at 3 cps . They NEED changes.

2 CP PANZERBÜCHSE OSTTRUPPEN NOW!!

Give love to poor poor mobile defense..

No, no more Osttruppen commanders. We already have one too many of those.

Also, I'd argue the standard Fuel drop should stay. I get the Osttruppen one is useful too, but it doesn't have the same effect.

The other doctrines look good though, some cool ideas among them.

2 CP PANZERBÜCHSE OSTTRUPPEN NOW!!

Give love to poor poor mobile defense..

An idea is to replace the Command Panzer IV with a Command Panther, there are voice lines but... yeah...

Revamped Luftwaffe Supply doctrine, included the suggested Luftwaffe officer instead of the recon, replaced the air drop with Supply drop from the Osttruppen doctrine to give it some more combat utility and finally the Fallschirmjägers, a good opportunity to add them to the Ostheer finally:

over all i quite like this one, only thing i would look at is the refinement of the officer (i know you copy and pasted the arty officer, but would like to hash out the details on the new one)
adding the medkit air drop (maybe just 1?) to the officer, perhaps the AI strafe as a vet ability? really refine him much like the arty officer is, but defined to his on branch

2 CP PANZERBÜCHSE OSTTRUPPEN NOW!!

Give love to poor poor mobile defense..

Probably the Mobile defenses ostruppen reserves is the only commander ability left in the game that deploys units with varying equipment (lmg or no lmg). Imo they should get fixed equipment, like one lmg squad and one panzerbüchse squad, for a slightly increased price.

Probably the Mobile defenses ostruppen reserves is the only commander ability left in the game that deploys units with varying equipment (lmg or no lmg). Imo they should get fixed equipment, like one lmg squad and one panzerbüchse squad, for a slightly increased price.

They still get lmgs sometimes? i tried the other day in test mode and got nothing, but that was just once. Still 3 cps for ostruppen, thats when Paratroopers and rangers come out.

over all i quite like this one, only thing i would look at is the refinement of the officer (i know you copy and pasted the arty officer, but would like to hash out the details on the new one)
adding the medkit air drop (maybe just 1?) to the officer, perhaps the AI strafe as a vet ability? really refine him much like the arty officer is, but defined to his on branch

Nah dude this is like a proof of concept for possible future revamps, ultimately community team is gonna decide what's it's gonna be see. It's just something I quickly whipped up.

Here is the Luftwaffe officer from Theater of war.
The Stuka CAS is quite different as it calls only a single Stuka, but it attack infantry too, similar to the Stuka in Assault Support Doctrine.
Now in this form it may be a bit OP in the doctrine, so here are the changes I would make:
-Faust removed
-Stuka CAS replaced with an mg strafe, meant to pin infantry, similar to Soviet airborne guards
-Fragmentation bomb replaced with incendiary bomb, maybe at vet 1
-Medical drop added
-Recon replaced with smoke bomb (similar to arty officer having smoke arty), recon would be in commander slot
-Concentrated fire aura ability added (from arty officer)