Ostheer T2 Skip

Not much time have gone afterpatch, people adopt slooooowly.

There is no problem in pgrens with pshreks, problem is that people want a T70.
Before patch T70 was a great choice against ostheer, because ostheer needed to bring in field more manpower and munitions just to counter it, or suffer from bad map control while T70 is uncountered.
Things havent changed, there still be another option for soviets in case of pshreks on field: the quad.
It is cheap and you pay exactly the same price for quad upgrade than ostheer for pshreks. Quad definitely will stand against pshreks because of suppression, and force ostheer to get a pak for countering. T2 is not skipped, voila.
(btw quad and T70 is deadly combo)
People just are accustumed to build orders, and they need to change them after this patch.

+1 good post!

Not much time have gone afterpatch, people adopt slooooowly.

There is no problem in pgrens with pshreks, problem is that people want a T70.
Before patch T70 was a great choice against ostheer, because ostheer needed to bring in field more manpower and munitions just to counter it, or suffer from bad map control while T70 is uncountered.
Things havent changed, there still be another option for soviets in case of pshreks on field: the quad.
It is cheap and you pay exactly the same price for quad upgrade than ostheer for pshreks. Quad definitely will stand against pshreks because of suppression, and force ostheer to get a pak for countering. T2 is not skipped, voila.
(btw quad and T70 is deadly combo)
People just are accustumed to build orders, and they need to change them after this patch.

+1

Now, close the thread. There are other problems to waist time.

Not much time have gone afterpatch, people adopt slooooowly.

There is no problem in pgrens with pshreks, problem is that people want a T70.
Before patch T70 was a great choice against ostheer, because ostheer needed to bring in field more manpower and munitions just to counter it, or suffer from bad map control while T70 is uncountered.
Things havent changed, there still be another option for soviets in case of pshreks on field: the quad.
It is cheap and you pay exactly the same price for quad upgrade than ostheer for pshreks. Quad definitely will stand against pshreks because of suppression, and force ostheer to get a pak for countering. T2 is not skipped, voila.
(btw quad and T70 is deadly combo)
People just are accustumed to build orders, and they need to change them after this patch.

The problem is with that logic Soviets are not the only faction vs Ost to be balanced with

Actually if anything T2 skip mostly effects UKF because one Shrek squad can hardcounter WASP or AEC. Also with current meta of bolster and Tommy upgrades Ostwind has a field day munching British infantry before Cromwell arrives.

Ostwind needs a little nerf in the AT department as it's a bit too good vs Stuart or AEC. Puma hardcounters centaur in comparison due to extra range and self spotting with the less mobile cent

No, I'm suggesting a means to nerf it that I believe elegantly avoids the knock-on effects of nerfing the units directly.

Whether or not adjustments are necessary is a question for the balance team.

Then why are we having this discussion, if it’s not clear if it’s necessary?

Then why are we having this discussion, if it’s not clear if it’s necessary?

Because it's about the how.

Tuning the unit performance affects them in every build.

Tuning the teching distribution only reduces the reward for skipping T2, and there are lots of other ways you can subtley shuffle power around.

If that's not an interesting discussion to you, then nobody is forcing you to read this thread.

The problem is with that logic Soviets are not the only faction vs Ost to be balanced with

Actually if anything T2 skip mostly effects UKF because one Shrek squad can hardcounter WASP or AEC. Also with current meta of bolster and Tommy upgrades Ostwind has a field day munching British infantry before Cromwell arrives.

Ostwind needs a little nerf in the AT department as it's a bit too good vs Stuart or AEC. Puma hardcounters centaur in comparison due to extra range and self spotting with the less mobile cent

I'd have thought UKF was the worst faction to skip T2 against. The 251 is your best way to level the anti-infantry playing field, and you're not going to counter a CP2 M5 with Panzershrecks.

The problem is with that logic Soviets are not the only faction vs Ost to be balanced with

Actually if anything T2 skip mostly effects UKF because one Shrek squad can hardcounter WASP or AEC. Also with current meta of bolster and Tommy upgrades Ostwind has a field day munching British infantry before Cromwell arrives.

Ostwind needs a little nerf in the AT department as it's a bit too good vs Stuart or AEC. Puma hardcounters centaur in comparison due to extra range and self spotting with the less mobile cent

1) How AT squad is affecting bolster meta? Shrek-graded pgren squad have less chance to win against tommie squad in any realistic scenario.
2) AEC has excellent timing of arrival, literally near 222s, and completely annihilates it. Having shreks mean survival of 222 and glameHT but doesnt mean, that they can be used agressively, because UKF also has PIAT sappers, which can easily force back OST lights. If ostheer player skips t2, he hasn't got fielded lights. Why do you need AEC then, you can save for crom or cent. I can even say that AEC's building is a missplay in case of ostheers tech skipping.
3) Ostwind is a unit which has the same purpose that centaur, but it doesnt mean that they should be the same, it is against a game design itself. And, for G-d's sake, please, compare ostheer units to UKF, not OKW. Puma is OKW's tech tree unit, not ostheers. But, back to our belover AA-tanks:
As my personal game experience I see 2 types of counter against centaur or Ostwind: getting a medium/td to hunt it solo (more risky way, but if it succeeds, then I have total profit in resources) or getting a multiple AT without fuel investment (more like safeplay and blah blah blah, hope you understand what I mean). If you lose your cent or ostwind to a light, it is a big missplay of yours whatever faction you pick in this case, but both, AEC and puma, should have an opportunity to hunt this tank down, since their purpose is AT-duty. Su-76 loses 1v1 fight to PIV in a lots of scenarios (while it still have possibility to finish it down after eaten satchel or few ZIS-3 shots, for example), but it doesn't mean, that PIV requires nerf on it's AT effectivness. Same appeals to ostwind. There was a thread about Ostwind against allied mediums, and there is proved already, that ostwind is not usually winning 1v1 fights against those. Sry for this wall of text, that's all my bad english. Anyways, point is, that both stuart and AEC have a little window of opportunity against ostwind and they do not require more.

Ostheer IDF comes out of the woodwork when someone suggests nerfing something overperforming and just yell "BUT X HAD IT SO WE GOT TO TOO WAAH"

1) How AT squad is affecting bolster meta? Shrek-graded pgren squad have less chance to win against tommie squad in any realistic scenario.

I'd assume it's because having PGrens in T0 enables skipping T2. That gives you extra 200 MP to play with now and your rushed T3 unit 20 FU earlier.

With benefits like that, it's hard to argue in favour of building T2 unless you desperately need a unit from it.

Regardless of whether or not the Ostwind rush needs tuning, some of T2's cost ought to go to BP1 or BP2. T2 just isn't very cost effective right now.

I'd assume it's because having PGrens in T0 enables skipping T2. That gives you extra 200 MP to play with now and your rushed T3 unit 20 FU earlier.

With benefits like that, it's hard to argue in favour of building T2 unless you desperately need a unit from it.

Regardless of whether or not the Ostwind rush needs tuning, some of T2's cost ought to go to BP1 or BP2. T2 just isn't very cost effective right now.

Not a big advantage since using of 222 (which is 400 mp loss in this case) can easily "outprice" it's own build while just saving 200 mp may cause a bigger loss if opponent played right, especially since even pioneers are 25mp to reinforce.
When penals just have received their PTRS upgrade axis, especially ostheer, started to suffer from new meta, and people forgot for a while that soviet t2 even exists.. But now, as far as I can see, literally every match soviet player soon or not backtechs to get atleast a ZIS-3, even maxims are represent.
It is very hard to win a game without ATG and ATG is always useful somehow, so don't really see a future for this "only pgren" build.
As I said before, people just need to adopt.

Not a big advantage since using of 222 (which is 400 mp loss in this case) can easily "outprice" it's own build while just saving 200 mp may cause a bigger loss if opponent played right, especially since even pioneers are 25mp to reinforce.
When penals just have received their PTRS upgrade axis, especially ostheer, started to suffer from new meta, and people forgot for a while that soviet t2 even exists.. But now, as far as I can see, literally every match soviet player soon or not backtechs to get atleast a ZIS-3, even maxims are represent.
It is very hard to win a game without ATG and ATG is always useful somehow, so don't really see a future for this "only pgren" build.
As I said before, people just need to adopt.

1+ again, wonderful. So less posts, so much quality.

I'd assume it's because having PGrens in T0 enables skipping T2. That gives you extra 200 MP to play with now and your rushed T3 unit 20 FU earlier.

With benefits like that, it's hard to argue in favour of building T2 unless you desperately need a unit from it.

Regardless of whether or not the Ostwind rush needs tuning, some of T2's cost ought to go to BP1 or BP2. T2 just isn't very cost effective right now.

Could build a sniper and watch that 200mp bleed away if they are relying heavily on pgrens.
As has been said the meta is shaken and players need to try new things rather than the same things and complaining they don't work. We have at least another week before we can truly tell what's properly "op" and players just havnt figured out how to deal with yet

Not a big advantage since using of 222 (which is 400 mp loss in this case) can easily "outprice" it's own build while just saving 200 mp may cause a bigger loss if opponent played right, especially since even pioneers are 25mp to reinforce.
When penals just have received their PTRS upgrade axis, especially ostheer, started to suffer from new meta, and people forgot for a while that soviet t2 even exists.. But now, as far as I can see, literally every match soviet player soon or not backtechs to get atleast a ZIS-3, even maxims are represent.
It is very hard to win a game without ATG and ATG is always useful somehow, so don't really see a future for this "only pgren" build.
As I said before, people just need to adopt.

+1

From personal experience, T2 skip works best if you have a light vehicle aka the 250, otherwise you won't have enough pushing power midgame as Ostheer.

Osttruppen can get by without T2 if they drop their PAK40 + fuel drop and have a good early game. T1 for Faust and Sniper are almost a necessity in this case.

A ballsy strat like dropping fuel might get you to T3 fast enough before you get pushed off.


In any case, just relying on the Pgrens without any back-up is a recipe for disaster. Backtech to Kampenya for the PAK40 should be strongly considered after your first T3 vehicle or if things go sour.

In any case, just relying on the Pgrens without any back-up is a recipe for disaster. Backtech to Kampenya for the PAK40 should be strongly considered after your first T3 vehicle or if things go sour.

Backteching T2 later is still a T2 skip.

A particular concern is the 251 and 222 struggling to be competitive. If T2 isn't mandatory, they're effectively 400 MP 50 FU to get.

IMO there is nothing wrong with skipping T2. OST T3 is so good and Pzgrens are just ideal to keep the infantry combat out of stalling. It widens the Pz4 oportunity window and the Ostw one too.

It is far too good to be real. Thats what worries me, does OST deserve a highway to core units?
AFAIK OST is now more competitive and harder to deal with, but not impossible to fight off. OST simply got its rust taken out. It is a little too much for teamgames though, because thats where massed Pz4 are a big issue.

What if tech builtimes are increased? It will force a longer timing for Pz4 or Ostw, like the prior patch. And give OST the decision to go full Pzgren or teamweapons with T1.
Ostw should get a cost nerf (increase) to put up their new performance though.

It might be a good idea to give allied light tanks some sort of buff now, to put more pressure on a player that wants to skip T2.

If panthers are to be nerfed then i see no reason to change the actual situation, but im looking way ahead of the current meta. It might not happen.

Last game I spectated the Ostheer player skipped Tier 1 entirely, lol. And ended up winning, too.

Honestly, I really think PzGrens need to be moved back to T2, even if it means reducing tech cost or time. Thematically, its where they belong, and it was what tied that whole tier together anyway.

It is getting a little bit ridiculous when you can just shut down the map with t0 and call in units. Thankfully only a 1v1, phenomenon, but still...

Has anyone realized that the reason t2 gets skipped now is that the options in it are shit?

No seriously
222s get shredded by allied LVs, so you need to get a PaK to counter them. But having to bring the PaK to protect your 222s negates the advantage that light vehicles have, mobility
222s aren’t even that good at killing infantry.

By skipping t2, you effectively gain 200 manpower and 20 fuel by not having to get the building, don’t have to waste 60 fuel for double 222s to protect your grens from CQB infantry (PGrens do it better), and you aren’t encumbered by a PaK, you can get shreked PGrens instead and remain mobile

Has anyone realized that the reason t2 gets skipped now is that the options in it are shit?

No seriously
222s get shredded by allied LVs, so you need to get a PaK to counter them. But having to bring the PaK to protect your 222s negates the advantage that light vehicles have, mobility
222s aren’t even that good at killing infantry.

By skipping t2, you effectively gain 200 manpower and 20 fuel by not having to get the building, don’t have to waste 60 fuel for double 222s to protect your grens from CQB infantry (PGrens do it better), and you aren’t encumbered by a PaK, you can get shreked PGrens instead and remain mobile

]
You missed the part, where you don't get massive shock of flame HT and by not building it, you give allies a lot of breathing room and NOT force them to spend their fuel for that AT LV they would otherwise need, while gimping yourself into reliance on shrecks alone, which isn't going to do anything against anything larger then UC/M3 as they'll just escape.

If you are willing to do that, then do it, but don't pretend T2 gives you nothing, or that shreck PGs are viable way to counter decently microed clown cars or other early lights.

Has anyone realized that the reason t2 gets skipped now is that the options in it are shit?

No seriously
222s get shredded by allied LVs, so you need to get a PaK to counter them. But having to bring the PaK to protect your 222s negates the advantage that light vehicles have, mobility
222s aren’t even that good at killing infantry.

By skipping t2, you effectively gain 200 manpower and 20 fuel by not having to get the building, don’t have to waste 60 fuel for double 222s to protect your grens from CQB infantry (PGrens do it better), and you aren’t encumbered by a PaK, you can get shreked PGrens instead and remain mobile

That is the reason why I also skipp it most time. 222 doesn't worth it most time, because it has no late-game benefits (since Ostwind is better AA). Maybe a replacement of its abilities would make it more attractive.

222: Replace Inf-detection with Blitzkrieg-mode like in CoH-1. Or give it the option to neutralice outposts.
-
251: It could get a repair-buff aura for Pioneers, so Ostheer could increase repair speed. (not under attack)
-
PaK40: good gun, Schreck and early StuG is better.

-> Also, remove the Scope! Make it a 222 upgrade, nerf it a litte bit. Give Ele the focus sight like SU85 back (Ele had it in earlier versions).

Skipping T2 essentially means an "opportunity gap".

What most allies have to do in order to counter "this" then is to use light vehicles in combination with infantry support. Use MGs since they have only infantry only the field if T2 is skipped. Use Mortars as they will attempt heavily to acquire more Infantry units rather than support weapons.

The thing is, it can be countered. As some had already stated, give it time to adapt!


Saying the options that can be used to counter infantry.


If you take USF AA Halftrack it is a good counter to those who skip T2, and have units supporting it at the same time. Makes it difficult for Pzgrens with Shrek to counter them as they are pinned. M20 Utility would be a perfect opportunity to use as it is perfect against infantry, even at distance. In this instance, I think USF particularly is a better counter then the rest.

SU could use Sniper to drain manpower. Maxims are somewhat decent but requires some support from Cons in order to made more useful. Use Cons as a protectorate or like a distraction. Make use of their mobility. You have as well other light vehicle options like Quad and T70.

UKF, have to use MGs. Great MG although not as good as MG42. It trades suppression for more firepower. At least you can depend on its killing power. Make use of Universal Carrier, it is still a great AI vehicle to use early game, especially against those who attempt to get many men on the field. Great opportunity to use Bofors, mostly in team games. AEC is decent against infantry. You have options!



I mean, if they have only infantry on the field. I guess you would know what the ideal solution is to combat infantry! Especially when they wont have a Pak40 to support them!

Backteching T2 later is still a T2 skip.

Ostheer players opponent, not a balance team, should provocate him to not skip this tech, which still be relevant and important.