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Ostheer T2 Skip

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26 Jun 2019, 15:36 PM
#141
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jun 2019, 15:21 PMLago


I don't see the relevance of this to T2's value as a tier.

For instance if armored cars play was more relevant one could add the 221 as counter to armored cars to T2 and delay shrecks and Paks.

or one could delay the 250.

Point here is that too many unit come at the same time frame it is difficult for all them to remain relevant.
26 Jun 2019, 15:47 PM
#142
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
You could lock shreks to T2, seems pretty reasonable.

Making T2 cheaper isn't a good idea because flame half track rush.

But I do think it's easy to counter, people just need to learn how to read it and what to build.


+100. People need to calm down and adapt and change their tactics for a few weeks before arriving at a conclusion.

Do people remember when the 222 costed 250mp and was a literal piece of garbage that was always disrespected by allied players. Usually the allied player would just stall the 222 by hiding behind green cover and just threaten it every once in a while with an AT nade. MAYBE he might get ONE zook. And that was it. A complete joke. Then when it got buffed and players like VonIvan were getting 3 222s in the tournament and hammering his opponents, all the allied players were raging on the forums 222 OP!!!!:*(:*( Well, a month later the allied players learned where the "buy at gun" button is located and pressed it when there was more than one 222, and 222 spam meta was dead in a month. The 222 ended up being completely counterable and did NOT receive nerfs that the allied crybabies wanted.
26 Jun 2019, 16:36 PM
#143
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

The most funny situation in this patch, that t1 opening become the really one playable openning for SU. If you want hold a line against OKW you need penals. IF you want have a chance against new OST strat - penals and M3. Rest in Peace conscripts...
26 Jun 2019, 17:04 PM
#144
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Well, a month later the allied players learned where the "buy at gun" button is located and pressed it when there was more than one 222, and 222 spam meta was dead in a month. The 222 ended up being completely counterable and did NOT receive nerfs that the allied crybabies wanted.


If you're talking about the Mobidef Meta, that got killed by the Puma being tied to tech.
26 Jun 2019, 19:23 PM
#145
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2019, 20:31 PMLago
The drawbacks of skipping T2 are so minor now that it's just not worth 200 MP 20 FU any more.


Personally I think a large part in this is the Allies not adjusting their build orders yet (which is to be expected, it's only been just over a week). Not having a Pak is most certainly a drawback, just one that hasn't been exploited very well yet.

Soviets still seem to almost always go for their trusted T-70, but that build order plays right into the hands of the (Assgrens into) Panzerschrecks into Ostwind. If Soviets got the M5 quad instead, it'd hardcounter the Schrecks pretty well while leaving more fuel to get an SU-76 or T-34 to help counter the Ostwind.

Every Allied faction has access to a mobile suppression half track now, they just have to start using them to counter the Schrecks. Players should be given time to figure out natural counters for the stuff that is strong but not blatantly broken, and if after some weeks it turns out the T2 skipping is too strong regardless we can have a look at artificially restricting it (in which case I'd prefer to just make both T2 building or BP2 a requirement for Schrecks).
26 Jun 2019, 20:20 PM
#146
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Personally I think a large part in this is the Allies not adjusting their build orders yet (which is to be expected, it's only been just over a week). Not having a Pak is most certainly a drawback, just one that hasn't been exploited very well yet.

Soviets still seem to almost always go for their trusted T-70, but that build order plays right into the hands of the (Assgrens into) Panzerschrecks into Ostwind. If Soviets got the M5 quad instead, it'd hardcounter the Schrecks pretty well while leaving more fuel to get an SU-76 or T-34 to help counter the Ostwind.

Every Allied faction has access to a mobile suppression half track now, they just have to start using them to counter the Schrecks. Players should be given time to figure out natural counters for the stuff that is strong but not blatantly broken, and if after some weeks it turns out the T2 skipping is too strong regardless we can have a look at artificially restricting it (in which case I'd prefer to just make both T2 building or BP2 a requirement for Schrecks).


It doesn't really matter to me how powerful the T2 skip is in absolute terms. What does matter is how much more powerful it is than building T2.

Making Panzershrecks available regardless has turned T2 into a side tech: you can get away with not building it pretty easily now.

The idea of side tech is it gives you an immediate benefit: you get powerful tools now (light vehicles) at the cost of delaying more powerful tools later (tanks).

This doesn't work with T2 because of the 200 MP cost for the building. That puts a T2 skipping strategy 200 MP up over a T2 building strategy, balancing out the benefit of T2's units. And if that sidetech isn't giving you an immediate advantage, what's the point of it? You're delaying your tech for nothing.

That's why I'd like to see the Panzershrecks locked behind T2 anyway: it's necessary to restore the internal balance of Ostheer.
26 Jun 2019, 20:25 PM
#147
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jun 2019, 20:20 PMLago
Making Panzershrecks available regardless has turned T2 into a side tech: you can get away with not building it pretty easily now.


I don't really agree. The role of T2 (main tech or "side tech") is directly tied to how viable Panzerschrecks are to skip it. If people figure out how to effectively counter Pschrecks, the tech skip builds would fail. Also it comes down to personal preference and gamemode, because in 3v3 I would always build T2 for a 251 and the much more reliable Pak 40s.
26 Jun 2019, 20:25 PM
#148
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jun 2019, 20:20 PMLago


It doesn't really matter to me how powerful the T2 skip is in absolute terms. What does matter is how much more powerful it is than building T2.

Making Panzershrecks available regardless has turned T2 into a side tech: you can get away with not building it pretty easily now.

The idea of side tech is it gives you an immediate benefit: you get powerful tools now (light vehicles) at the cost of delaying more powerful tools later (tanks).

This doesn't work with T2 because of the 200 MP cost for the building. That puts a T2 skipping strategy 200 MP up over a T2 building strategy, balancing out the benefit of T2's units. And if that sidetech isn't giving you an immediate advantage, what's the point of it? You're delaying your tech for nothing.

That's why I'd like to see the Panzershrecks locked behind T2 anyway: it's necessary to restore the internal balance of Ostheer.


Go play into mid and late game without PaK above noob level.
You'll see why skipping tech as ost doesn't work very quickly.
26 Jun 2019, 20:51 PM
#149
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 13:10 PMLago
...

Another approach would be to removed the AT upgrade from PGs (and Penals) and give it to specialized AT unit build able from T2. Skipping T2 would leave Ostheer with little AT options.
26 Jun 2019, 22:25 PM
#150
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I don't really agree. The role of T2 (main tech or "side tech") is directly tied to how viable Panzerschrecks are to skip it. If people figure out how to effectively counter Pschrecks, the tech skip builds would fail. Also it comes down to personal preference and gamemode, because in 3v3 I would always build T2 for a 251 and the much more reliable Pak 40s.


And you'd be 200 manpower down for doing so.

T2 got away with its old price because it was effectively mandatory: skipping it meant Panzerfausts and Tellers for AT.

Ostheer getting a Pak at all is comparably expensive to T1 Soviets side-teching for a ZiS. Outside of stall-in strats, you just don't see that before medium armour.

A Pak is often better than a PGren squad, but it's not 180 MP 20 FU better.
26 Jun 2019, 23:59 PM
#151
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jun 2019, 20:25 PMKatitof


Go play into mid and late game without PaK above noob level.
You'll see why skipping tech as ost doesn't work very quickly.

Its cheap enough to backtech but expensive enough that skipping and rushing an Ostwind is good. Perma skip isn't expected, just delaying it to effectively knock 20 fuel and 200mp off the Ostwind timing.
27 Jun 2019, 00:03 AM
#152
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jun 2019, 20:25 PMKatitof


Go play into mid and late game without PaK above noob level.
You'll see why skipping tech as ost doesn't work very quickly.


Katitof if you're going to character attack at least make sure what you're saying is accurate

I've seen Jove, spanky etc countering the deadliest light (T70) with a Shrek squad fine. When you factor pgren and ost doctrinal infantry don't require muni you can funnel all that spare mg42 or flameht muni into tellers.

The fuel saved from tech skip combind with your opponent investing in light armor means your ostwind has a good window to boss the map even if you're losing slightly.

But hey what do top 20 players know saving the fuel and mp of building a Pak... They must be noobs according to you




27 Jun 2019, 01:22 AM
#153
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682




But hey what do top 20 players know saving the fuel and mp of building a Pak... They must be noobs according to you




Everyone's shit but himself, I think that's pretty clear by now. Sadly.
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