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russian armor

M36 Jackson

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18 Jun 2019, 01:01 AM
#261
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

If jacksons were to have 2 modes: "Aim mode" (half movement speed) or "hunt" mode (0.5 moving acc) with some visual queues like a lot smoke on the latter, jackson could become something of a strategic unit, with a justification of their strenghts instead of a "it has to be OP" unit
18 Jun 2019, 01:20 AM
#262
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1



OST faction get to have only a single stock casemate TD, because panthers are more like a heavy tank with good AT rather a heavy TD.
If panthers were Heavy TDs as jacksons are, they could reliably destroy another heavies like KVs, Churchs, IS2, ISU, Comets.
*Spoiler alert: Panthers cant cost effectively win against those heavies, as we all know, they trade hits as much and can loose miserably when the allied player has 3 functional neurons, axis can only spam panthers to get an advantage. So it cant be considered a heavy TD. At most an hybrid of heavy+medium TD

USF also have ATG, handheld zooks and some doctrinal variations to compensate AT power, like OST does with Elephant and OKW with JT.

And before people get their pitchforks and start a riot, soviet conscript dont have stock weapon upgrades and thats ok, now usf has great doctrinal AT units but they never appear in the discussion of jackOPns. GG then...


And which are these "Great Doctrinal AT Units" that USF has?
I took a look at my Commanders and found none of them, unless you mean Elite with Zooks or the P47s, or you mean the M10? (lul)
Either way the Jackson (And to a degree the Scott) are the reasons USF now can lategame, you nerf either of them and the faction will start to limp again.
Now having no early dominance nor lategame units.

Edit: USF has no Tank Hunter, Brick or such units to endure damage, so they get mobile high TDs instead. Fits the flavour and design of the faction.
18 Jun 2019, 01:49 AM
#263
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 301



OST faction get to have only a single stock casemate TD, because panthers are more like a heavy tank with good AT rather a heavy TD.
If panthers were Heavy TDs as jacksons are, they could reliably destroy another heavies like KVs, Churchs, IS2, ISU, Comets.
*Spoiler alert: Panthers cant cost effectively win against those heavies, as we all know, they trade hits as much and can loose miserably when the allied player has 3 functional neurons, axis can only spam panthers to get an advantage. So it cant be considered a heavy TD. At most an hybrid of heavy+medium TD

USF also have ATG, handheld zooks and some doctrinal variations to compensate AT power, like OST does with Elephant and OKW with JT.

And before people get their pitchforks and start a riot, soviet conscript dont have stock weapon upgrades and thats ok, now usf has great doctrinal AT units but they never appear in the discussion of jackOPns. GG then...


Because ostheer units aren't designed to overlap. Each one of them accomplishes a unique task on the battlefield. Paks can handle all kinds of armor and has no problems against allied heavies. Stugs counter lights and mediums and can zone out heavies with a bit of luck. Both of these units also have access to TWP. Panthers are a dominance tank: Can help units against infantry with its 3 mgs, can realiably penetrate mediums and has the speed and armor to dive in finish off damaged vehicles.

Not even soviet units overlap that much. It follows the same reasoning: Expensive Manpower only ATG that can handle even heavies and T3 tank hunters that exchange penetration and range for mobility and the lack of a set up time.

You can't compare "the variety of usf light AT solutions" vs axis doctrinal heavy TDs designed to zone out mediums and kill heavies. They serve different pruposes, have different timings and costs.
18 Jun 2019, 01:50 AM
#264
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785

I think a lot of this controversy stems from the fact that axis players are generally very bad about supporting their tanks with infantry (despite OST now even getting a free passive buff for doing so). Because USF has no effective non-doc mines outside the M20 M6, they make these risky dives and then try to blitzkrieg out. M36 catches up/pursues and boom, dead tank.

I think the way to fix this is to either add a pop up message for axis players reminding them to cover their tank pushes against USF, or, if we are to nerf the M36, reduce its HP but give all riflemen the cheap RE mines (at normal build time) and give REs the M7 mines Ass Engies get.

Boom, Axis get their M36 nerf and USF can still hope to stop Axis blitz drives. Nerfing speed, range, or ROF wouldn't accomplish this, so I think more accessible mines are the only choice.

On the other hand you could also make the M20 M6 mine cheaper.
18 Jun 2019, 08:58 AM
#265
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



You can't have unit variety when your faction only has a single stock TD in your rooster.
Either it's good at it's job, killing enemy tanks, or it isn't.

Not really, there allot of middle ground between M36 being OP and UP as for the majority of units.
18 Jun 2019, 09:04 AM
#266
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

I think a lot of this controversy stems from the fact that axis players are generally very bad about supporting their tanks with infantry (despite OST now even getting a free passive buff for doing so). Because USF has no effective non-doc mines outside the M20 M6, they make these risky dives and then try to blitzkrieg out. M36 catches up/pursues and boom, dead tank.

I think the way to fix this is to either add a pop up message for axis players reminding them to cover their tank pushes against USF, or, if we are to nerf the M36, reduce its HP but give all riflemen the cheap RE mines (at normal build time) and give REs the M7 mines Ass Engies get.

Boom, Axis get their M36 nerf and USF can still hope to stop Axis blitz drives. Nerfing speed, range, or ROF wouldn't accomplish this, so I think more accessible mines are the only choice.

On the other hand you could also make the M20 M6 mine cheaper.


I would live this as a change.


Mine saturation could even make the M10 a decent option.
18 Jun 2019, 10:56 AM
#267
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Having 0 dps vs infantry actually is a weakness. The panther's coaxial and mounted MG can do lots of damage vs squads if the panther is close.

The Jackson also cannot self spot like the SU85, has no stun shot like firefly, stug or elefant and it has paper armor that gets penned by every anti tank projectile. Not to mention that a Jackson has 0 advantage over TDs like JP4 or SU85 on our beloved thin MOBA style 2-4 lane camp maps.
jackson still has the armor to bounce p4 and jackson has more pen damage with ability instead of stun shoot or turret disable
18 Jun 2019, 11:19 AM
#268
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jackson still has the armor to bounce p4 and jackson has more pen damage with ability instead of stun shoot or turret disable

Armor doesn't help much against anything larger then ostwind.
You might get a lucky bounce off P4, but that's if you're lucky.
Ability doesn't do anything for any unit below panther.
18 Jun 2019, 14:23 PM
#269
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 11:19 AMKatitof

Armor doesn't help much against anything larger then ostwind.
You might get a lucky bounce off P4, but that's if you're lucky.
Ability doesn't do anything for any unit below panther.


I thought Jackson armor is good enough. At mid range it has 88% chance of pen by P4. In contrast, Jackson has 96% chance to pen Panther from far...
18 Jun 2019, 16:09 PM
#270
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 14:23 PMmrgame2


I thought Jackson armor is good enough. At mid range it has 88% chance of pen by P4. In contrast, Jackson has 96% chance to pen Panther from far...


It's a tank d e s t r o y e r.
18 Jun 2019, 16:16 PM
#271
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



It's a tank d e s t r o y e r.


So are Jp4 and Su85s, why are they weak to medium tanks when they flank, or specifically why do casemate TDs seem to have no discernible advantage to one like a Jackson.
18 Jun 2019, 16:26 PM
#272
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359



So are Jp4 and Su85s, why are they weak to medium tanks when they flank, or specifically why do casemate TDs seem to have no discernible advantage to one like a Jackson.


1. I was replying to Mrgame who has a problem with a high percentage chance to pen a Panther, not about medium tank flanks.

2. Answer your own question, why are those TDs vulnerable to flanks? Could it be because of the lack of turret?

Jacksons are also vulnerable to flanks. They have slightly more HP than they did back in the day and they just melted when a Panther looked at them. They can finally fight back and give USF a late game and now axis is mad they cant just dive a p4 with no support and win.

The jackson doesn't need any type of performance nerf or buff. I can agree to slightly increased fuel costs but Jackson's aren't some unstoppable god unit. Theyre quite easy to kill. And honestly? Lets look at this through the prism of the recent balance of team games. You want to nerf the only non-doc TD USF has right when 13 minute tigers are a thing?
18 Jun 2019, 16:28 PM
#273
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1096

I think a lot of this controversy stems from the fact that axis players are generally very bad about supporting their tanks with infantry (despite OST now even getting a free passive buff for doing so). Because USF has no effective non-doc mines outside the M20 M6, they make these risky dives and then try to blitzkrieg out. M36 catches up/pursues and boom, dead tank.

I think the way to fix this is to either add a pop up message for axis players reminding them to cover their tank pushes against USF, or, if we are to nerf the M36, reduce its HP but give all riflemen the cheap RE mines (at normal build time) and give REs the M7 mines Ass Engies get.

Boom, Axis get their M36 nerf and USF can still hope to stop Axis blitz drives. Nerfing speed, range, or ROF wouldn't accomplish this, so I think more accessible mines are the only choice.

On the other hand you could also make the M20 M6 mine cheaper.


Especially in team games. Panther spam has been the late-game strategy for years so it's expected that people will struggle to change.
18 Jun 2019, 18:45 PM
#274
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1220

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 16:28 PMGrim


Especially in team games. Panther spam has been the late-game strategy for years so it's expected that people will struggle to change.
latest tightrope video shows that
And triple elefant cancer
18 Jun 2019, 19:02 PM
#275
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

Nerfing Jackson will only make USF the least played faction in 3 v 3 and up. Almost every game you have Panther spam in high team modes. There was a REASON why allot of community members wanted a HP/armor buff for Jackson which we got years ago.
18 Jun 2019, 19:39 PM
#276
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



So are Jp4 and Su85s, why are they weak to medium tanks when they flank, or specifically why do casemate TDs seem to have no discernible advantage to one like a Jackson.

We play the same game?
SU-85 and JP4 do not require spotters as the only TDs in game, which means you do not have to sacrifice attrition to use them at their almost maximum range.
Add StuG to that with a proper doctrine.
18 Jun 2019, 20:33 PM
#277
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



...
Jacksons are also vulnerable to flanks.

High mobility almost nullifies that weakness. Only because panthers are long tanks and they have very low rear armor their flanks can be exploited, its not hard to get a rear armor hit on a panther at 60 degrees.

...
Theyre quite easy to kill. And honestly?
...

Well, an opinion is not a fact, i sincerely dont consider afk tank fights a viable argument. Easy is to say, hard is to prove, hence that point is not valid.

You want to nerf the only non-doc TD USF has right when 13 minute tigers are a thing?

Since jacksons are a long going discussion, the new tiger 13 min meta is not even close to be an excuse.
Also tigers are soon going to be "adjusted" to stop such rush, but jacksOPns will still dominate as early as the first one hits the field. You simply cant deny that a single jackson comes earlier than double P4, therefore the only option to abuse as USF. No brainer at all.
Axis cant pull a panther in the same timeframe withouth throwing the game and stugs are easy prey because of M36 high mobility
18 Jun 2019, 20:44 PM
#278
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

One could make HVAP non vet and a toggle with a layover time with it being tuned to heavy tanks (lower accuracy on the move kinda thing) and normal shells being set up for mediums (lower pen obviously) so that combined arms tank play is the bane of the Jacky boi. This could bring out some diverse tank builds fr Ost, okw Wil still be duckered a bit but at least they have the JP4 which can return fire
19 Jun 2019, 00:59 AM
#279
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 888

The Jackson can blow up tanks. LOL a TANK DESTROYER can effectively and efficiently destroy tanks so there must be something wrong with it! That's so horrible it's like there are no roaving Schrek blobs and AT gun spamming that could put a stop to the mighty Jackson because I guess it wipes infantry and decrews team weapons so well. Oh well I'm sure the balance team will figure out before too long it's not an Axis unit and nerf it into the ground.
19 Jun 2019, 01:16 AM
#280
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2019, 00:59 AMCODGUY
The Jackson can blow up tanks. LOL a TANK DESTROYER can effectively and efficiently destroy tanks so there must be something wrong with it! That's so horrible it's like there are no roaving Schrek blobs and AT gun spamming that could put a stop to the mighty Jackson because I guess it wipes infantry and decrews team weapons so well. Oh well I'm sure the balance team will figure out before too long it's not an Axis unit and nerf it into the ground.

Su85s and Fireflies want to have a serious talk with you, since none of them can beat as effectively (not even cost efficiently) mediums like jacksons do, ON THE MOVE AND TAKING HITS LIKE A CHAMP.

If your own allie bias is biased towards USF, then the problem its not the game unbalance
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