M36 Jackson

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 00:55 AMdistrofio

OST faction get to have only a single stock casemate TD, because panthers are more like a heavy tank with good AT rather a heavy TD.
If panthers were Heavy TDs as jacksons are, they could reliably destroy another heavies like KVs, Churchs, IS2, ISU, Comets.
*Spoiler alert: Panthers cant cost effectively win against those heavies, as we all know, they trade hits as much and can loose miserably when the allied player has 3 functional neurons, axis can only spam panthers to get an advantage. So it cant be considered a heavy TD. At most an hybrid of heavy+medium TD

USF also have ATG, handheld zooks and some doctrinal variations to compensate AT power, like OST does with Elephant and OKW with JT.

And before people get their pitchforks and start a riot, soviet conscript dont have stock weapon upgrades and thats ok, now usf has great doctrinal AT units but they never appear in the discussion of jackOPns. GG then...

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 00:55 AMdistrofio

OST faction get to have only a single stock casemate TD, because panthers are more like a heavy tank with good AT rather a heavy TD.
If panthers were Heavy TDs as jacksons are, they could reliably destroy another heavies like KVs, Churchs, IS2, ISU, Comets.
*Spoiler alert: Panthers cant cost effectively win against those heavies, as we all know, they trade hits as much and can loose miserably when the allied player has 3 functional neurons, axis can only spam panthers to get an advantage. So it cant be considered a heavy TD. At most an hybrid of heavy+medium TD

USF also have ATG, handheld zooks and some doctrinal variations to compensate AT power, like OST does with Elephant and OKW with JT.

And before people get their pitchforks and start a riot, soviet conscript dont have stock weapon upgrades and thats ok, now usf has great doctrinal AT units but they never appear in the discussion of jackOPns. GG then...

Jump back to quoted post17 Jun 2019, 22:40 PMOutsider_Sidaroth

You can't have unit variety when your faction only has a single stock TD in your rooster.
Either it's good at it's job, killing enemy tanks, or it isn't.

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 01:50 AMMazianni

I think a lot of this controversy stems from the fact that axis players are generally very bad about supporting their tanks with infantry (despite OST now even getting a free passive buff for doing so). Because USF has no effective non-doc mines outside the M20 M6, they make these risky dives and then try to blitzkrieg out. M36 catches up/pursues and boom, dead tank.

I think the way to fix this is to either add a pop up message for axis players reminding them to cover their tank pushes against USF, or, if we are to nerf the M36, reduce its HP but give all riflemen the cheap RE mines (at normal build time) and give REs the M7 mines Ass Engies get.

Boom, Axis get their M36 nerf and USF can still hope to stop Axis blitz drives. Nerfing speed, range, or ROF wouldn't accomplish this, so I think more accessible mines are the only choice.

On the other hand you could also make the M20 M6 mine cheaper.

Jump back to quoted post17 Jun 2019, 23:00 PMaerafield

Having 0 dps vs infantry actually is a weakness. The panther's coaxial and mounted MG can do lots of damage vs squads if the panther is close.

The Jackson also cannot self spot like the SU85, has no stun shot like firefly, stug or elefant and it has paper armor that gets penned by every anti tank projectile. Not to mention that a Jackson has 0 advantage over TDs like JP4 or SU85 on our beloved thin MOBA style 2-4 lane camp maps.

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 10:56 AMStug life

jackson still has the armor to bounce p4 and jackson has more pen damage with ability instead of stun shoot or turret disable

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 11:19 AMKatitof

Armor doesn't help much against anything larger then ostwind.
You might get a lucky bounce off P4, but that's if you're lucky.
Ability doesn't do anything for any unit below panther.

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 14:23 PMmrgame2

I thought Jackson armor is good enough. At mid range it has 88% chance of pen by P4. In contrast, Jackson has 96% chance to pen Panther from far...

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 16:09 PMpvtgooner

It's a tank d e s t r o y e r.

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 16:16 PMinsaneHoshi

So are Jp4 and Su85s, why are they weak to medium tanks when they flank, or specifically why do casemate TDs seem to have no discernible advantage to one like a Jackson.

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 01:50 AMMazianni

I think a lot of this controversy stems from the fact that axis players are generally very bad about supporting their tanks with infantry (despite OST now even getting a free passive buff for doing so). Because USF has no effective non-doc mines outside the M20 M6, they make these risky dives and then try to blitzkrieg out. M36 catches up/pursues and boom, dead tank.

I think the way to fix this is to either add a pop up message for axis players reminding them to cover their tank pushes against USF, or, if we are to nerf the M36, reduce its HP but give all riflemen the cheap RE mines (at normal build time) and give REs the M7 mines Ass Engies get.

Boom, Axis get their M36 nerf and USF can still hope to stop Axis blitz drives. Nerfing speed, range, or ROF wouldn't accomplish this, so I think more accessible mines are the only choice.

On the other hand you could also make the M20 M6 mine cheaper.

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 16:28 PMGrim

Especially in team games. Panther spam has been the late-game strategy for years so it's expected that people will struggle to change.

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 16:16 PMinsaneHoshi

So are Jp4 and Su85s, why are they weak to medium tanks when they flank, or specifically why do casemate TDs seem to have no discernible advantage to one like a Jackson.

Jump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 16:26 PMpvtgooner

...
Jacksons are also vulnerable to flanks.

...
Theyre quite easy to kill. And honestly?
...

You want to nerf the only non-doc TD USF has right when 13 minute tigers are a thing?

Jump back to quoted post19 Jun 2019, 00:59 AMCODGUY

The Jackson can blow up tanks. LOL a TANK DESTROYER can effectively and efficiently destroy tanks so there must be something wrong with it! That's so horrible it's like there are no roaving Schrek blobs and AT gun spamming that could put a stop to the mighty Jackson because I guess it wipes infantry and decrews team weapons so well. Oh well I'm sure the balance team will figure out before too long it's not an Axis unit and nerf it into the ground.