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Soviet General Faction Changes - New cmdr mod 5.0

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30 Apr 2019, 22:19 PM
#441
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:09 PMKirrik
USF AT gun which is considered worst AT gun in game


You mean that really cheap ATG that can become the best ATG in the game with the press of a button and some munitions? And become even better with a great vet 1 ability on top? I doubt anyone considers the M1 to be bad. Most consider it to be one of best actually. With its high ROF it's also the best ATG against light vehicles and low armored mediums like the Ostheer P4 and the Ostwind.

Besides, the M-42s dominate light vehicles which is their intended purpose. They do well against mediums, especially with their high performance increases with vet. There is nothing wrong with their AT performance.
30 Apr 2019, 22:27 PM
#442
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:09 PMKirrik
Just a reminder - cost of M-42 is just 30 MP lower than USF AT gun which is considered worst AT gun in game, and M-42 stats make it seem great in comparison, especially if you consider fact that it's doctrinal and sov already has zis-3
Canister is better off being removed than remain in it's current state, just give the damn thing better pen or ability to garrison so it can actually do it's role as AT gun.


- The stock USF AT gun is by far the best AT-gun against anything with less armor than an Ost P4.
- The M-42 is techless. The USF AT gun is behind a 200 manpower + 35 fuel Captain, while Lt is meta.
- The alternative to the M42 is paying 160 manpower + 20 fuel and 320 manpower for a ZIS-3.
- Canister performance is untouched. The change just makes it counterable with infantry play, so you need an actual screening force. An AT gun is not supposed to safely counter both infantry and vehicles.
30 Apr 2019, 22:37 PM
#443
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

hey guys nobody is happy that maxim is finally getting fixed :bananadance:
30 Apr 2019, 22:42 PM
#444
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

hey guys nobody is happy that maxim is finally getting fixed :bananadance:

Vet1 buff that relies on always having forward unit in front of it or a gypsy with crystal ball by your side or a literal map hack to have any effect that won't result in overrun or stolen(heh like they'd be stupid enough to steal it) maxim.

We may have very different definitions of "fixed" here.
But well....
30 Apr 2019, 22:44 PM
#445
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

You guys realize that nothing can possible justify that gap in performance for just 30mp? Especially for a doctrinal unit
30 Apr 2019, 22:46 PM
#446
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1

Did I really see someone say that the USF AT gun is the worst in-game? Must have been my imagination, surely.
30 Apr 2019, 22:47 PM
#447
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:46 PMFarlion
Did I really see someone say that USF AT gun is the worst in-game? Must have been my imagination, surely.


On raw penetration values, it is.

But it's cheaper, can extend its range, has a wider arc and has a timed ability to pen like other AT guns.
30 Apr 2019, 22:48 PM
#448
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:46 PMFarlion
Did I really see someone say that USF AT gun is the worst in-game? Must have been my imagination, surely.

Assuming you're not using tungsten it obivously IS worst at gun. If you include that then gap between USF gun and M-42 becomes monstrous.
30 Apr 2019, 22:57 PM
#449
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:48 PMKirrik
Assuming you're not using tungsten it obivously IS worst at gun


Why would anyone assume you're not using the one ability that is literally meant to be used to give it great performance versus mediums and up? It gets higher pen than any other ATG with 30 munitions and has by far the highest ROF by default.
30 Apr 2019, 22:58 PM
#450
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:48 PMKirrik

Assuming you're not using tungsten it obivously IS worst at gun. If you include that then gap between USF gun and M-42 becomes monstrous.


I disagree emphatically. The USF gun has a ridiculous high ROF that will easily penetrate Axis mediums.

I also feel it's a bit disingenuous the disconnect the ability from the gun itself.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:47 PMLago


On raw penetration values, it is.

But it's cheaper, can extend its range, has a wider arc and has a timed ability to pen like other AT guns.


Sure, but looking only at raw penetration is like looking at a quarter of a picture.
30 Apr 2019, 22:59 PM
#451
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:58 PMFarlion
Sure, but looking only at raw penetration is like looking at a quarter of a picture.


Exactly. The ZiS is the best AT gun by a long shot if what you want is a mortar.
30 Apr 2019, 23:03 PM
#452
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:44 PMKirrik
You guys realize that nothing can possible justify that gap in performance for just 30mp? Especially for a doctrinal unit


The M42 does NOT compete with the USF AT gun, so this is barely an argument. Even then, the USF AT gun has a 4 men crew, no AI capabilities, a significant tech cost/trade-off, a slower turn rate and no stealth. You can't just compare the 30 mp difference between their base price.

Urban Defense is the only doctrine that combines an effective light vehicle counter (M42) with Shocks, which - together with the KV2 - has made it the most prominent sov meta this patch. All other Shocktrooper doctrines have to backtech ZIS to survive the light vehicle onslaught, unless you start with T2 and want to autolose.
30 Apr 2019, 23:16 PM
#453
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 22:42 PMKatitof

Vet1 buff that relies on always having forward unit in front of it or a gypsy with crystal ball by your side or a literal map hack to have any effect that won't result in overrun or stolen(heh like they'd be stupid enough to steal it) maxim.

We may have very different definitions of "fixed" here.
But well....
they tried at least
30 Apr 2019, 23:16 PM
#454
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573



The M42 does NOT compete with the USF AT gun, so this is barely an argument. Even then, the USF AT gun has a 4 men crew, no AI capabilities, a significant tech cost/trade-off, a slower turn rate and no stealth. You can't just compare the 30 mp difference between their base price.

Urban Defense is the only doctrine that combines an effective light vehicle counter (M42) with Shocks, which - together with the KV2 - has made it the most prominent sov meta this patch. All other Shocktrooper doctrines have to backtech ZIS to survive the light vehicle onslaught, unless you start with T2 and want to autolose.


Urban defense is meta because canister abuse, the same way mobile defense was meta because of call-in abuse. It does not change the fact M-42 received heavy nerfs to it's AI and cost increase to the level of proper AT-gun without any buff to it's ability to scale into late game like all other AT guns have
30 Apr 2019, 23:30 PM
#455
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2019, 23:16 PMKirrik


Urban defense is meta because canister abuse, the same way mobile defense was meta because of call-in abuse. It does not change the fact M-42 received heavy nerfs to it's AI and cost increase to the level of proper AT-gun without any buff to it's ability to scale into late game like all other AT guns have


I believe that, even if canister got completely removed, Urban Defense would still be default in every loadout. It's the combination of a strong light vehicle counter, Shocks and a heavy call-in that makes this doctrine so strong.

The M-42 does not have to scale beyond medium tanks, you need ZIS guns for that. When paired they do fine against medium tanks and slaughter any light vehicles, which is their intended purpose. Also consider the vet requirement of the M-42 is half that of the ZIS-3 and it can engage infantry, so getting them to vet 3 is very easy.
30 Apr 2019, 23:34 PM
#456
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Now please give brits mills bomb a min. range.

Thx for using that... lol

1 May 2019, 00:13 AM
#457
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

BTW, regarding this:



M3. As in the scout car? So does that mean the soviet one has worse moving accuracy for riders as well?
1 May 2019, 00:31 AM
#458
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

M3. As in the scout car? So does that mean the soviet one has worse moving accuracy for riders as well?


No, the M3 Half Track that comes in the USF Mechanized Commander.
1 May 2019, 00:41 AM
#459
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

hey guys nobody is happy that maxim is finally getting fixed :bananadance:

Not a fix. The maxim is garbage without vet then and is now. With vet and premeditation it can now defend a point directly in front of it. But if it gets flanked and wiped it returns to useless even if you recrew it.

Improving the vet on a unit that struggles to get vet and do anything meaningful without it doesn't fix it. It didn't for cons and it doesn't for the maxim. The maxim costs the same as an mg42 and has an extra 160mp tech cost to get u it but it needs vet to be able to stop a frontal assault? What about when it gets wiped and recrewed? Is it fixed now? The enemy running around with weapons and vet and the maxim is just waiting for vet 1 so it can be "fixed"
1 May 2019, 01:04 AM
#460
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3



No, the M3 Half Track that comes in the USF Mechanized Commander.


Is it possible to keep the 30% movement penalty of the WC51, but decreasing the amount of passengers that can shoot out of the USF M3 from 5 to 4 instead of the 30% movement penalty? This would nerf Cavs in the M3 slightly, without drastically decreasing the potency of zooks in an M3.

Sorry for not posting this in the USF thread.
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