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OST Grens

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15 Apr 2019, 11:16 AM
#161
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2019, 07:09 AMKatitof

That's not my point, my point is, you don't need to be soldier to serve on frontline/participate in combat.
Partisans anyone?

Regardless, no ss will ever appear in any game, because its political, not military force, doesn't matter what they used or what they did, they still origin from political source, not military.


I get auto. Named ss divisions in hoi4, does that count?:guyokay:
20 Apr 2019, 13:39 PM
#162
avatar of TheOldBreed

Posts: 76

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2019, 13:03 PMKatitof

Again, they were political, not military.
Just because you have an uniform and a gun does not make you a soldier.

Best equipment doesn't make you most elite either.


Are you saying these men were not soldiers? Thats crazy, I have distant family who fought in the SS and most of them were killed guess what... fighting. Yes they were soilders.
20 Apr 2019, 14:14 PM
#163
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Are you saying these men were not soldiers? Thats crazy, I have distant family who fought in the SS and most of them were killed guess what... fighting. Yes they were soilders.

What's next?
Volkssturm were soldiers?
Partisans were soldiers?
Civilians were soldiers?
They all died fighting.
20 Apr 2019, 14:20 PM
#164
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

By definition Civilians do not fight.
20 Apr 2019, 14:22 PM
#165
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 14:20 PMVipper
By definition Civilians do not fight.

By definition, partisans and resistance movements can consist of fighting civilians.
Simply not frontline fighting.
Whole volkssturm was made out of civilians(too old and too young to ever be considered soldiers) who were given rifles, fausts and pointed towards enemy.
20 Apr 2019, 14:45 PM
#166
avatar of TheOldBreed

Posts: 76

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 14:22 PMKatitof

By definition, partisans and resistance movements can consist of fighting civilians.
Simply not frontline fighting.
Whole volkssturm was made out of civilians(too old and too young to ever be considered soldiers) who were given rifles, fausts and pointed towards enemy.

Please explain why the Waffen-SS were not soldiers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS Read this and than then explain your reasoning for saying there not soldiers.
20 Apr 2019, 15:39 PM
#167
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 14:22 PMKatitof

By definition, partisans and resistance movements can consist of fighting civilians.
Simply not frontline fighting.
Whole volkssturm was made out of civilians(too old and too young to ever be considered soldiers) who were given rifles, fausts and pointed towards enemy.

As soon a civilian uses a gun he is no longer considered civilian.

Suggestion:
Open a dictionary and stop arguing semantics pls.
20 Apr 2019, 18:13 PM
#168
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 15:39 PMVipper

As soon a civilian uses a gun he is no longer considered civilian.

Suggestion:
Open a dictionary and stop arguing semantics pls.


Or we could go by US doctrine and say that any male that is old enough to MAYBE use a gun is no longer a Civilian
20 Apr 2019, 18:20 PM
#169
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Or we could go by US doctrine and say that any male that is old enough to MAYBE use a gun is no longer a Civilian

:)

Their "reality" is even more perverse since they call the mercenaries they hire as "civilian contractors" although they are armed to the teeth and are beyond any jurisdiction if they misuse their firepower.
2 May 2019, 12:14 PM
#170
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 378

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2019, 07:09 AMKatitof

That's not my point, my point is, you don't need to be soldier to serve on frontline/participate in combat.
Partisans anyone?

Regardless, no ss will ever appear in any game, because its political, not military force, doesn't matter what they used or what they did, they still origin from political source, not military.


That's entirely incorrect. They are indeed a para-military force. Also, Partisans are not uniformed combatants, hence would be tried under civil law as terrorists. The Waffen SS when tried at Nuremberg, was tried under military law, as legal military combatants, hence, everyone except you seems to realize that they are in fact, a military force.
6 May 2019, 10:12 AM
#171
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

I think (1) cover bonus for grens it necessary. They take way lesser damage in cover than usual. I think that is good compensation or decrease the accuracy received even more than usual only when behind cover would compensate.

I think this would be a fine adjustment considering how they are more of a defensive unit. Currently allies just blob against wehr easily. Wehr can not ever do that really. So this would be a fine adjustment.

OR

(2) when behind cover, increase damage output by 25% percent, maybe that is too much but to compensate for them being limited to 4 man would make sense.

(if only 1st option) Increase cost of Grens to 250 manpower for first option.
(if only 2nd option) If it were second option, increase cost of Grens to 270 manpower.

Since they would perform better than cons.
6 May 2019, 14:32 PM
#172
avatar of WarIdiot

Posts: 10

Imo Grens should be removed or replaced by panzergrenadiers as mainline infantry for ostheer like in the first coh, although weak at first they should atleast be better than the current grens and they become better and get abilities to increase their utility as you tech up.

I thought axis are supposed to have superior elite infantry but lesser numbers than allied infantry but in its current state grens are just better conscripts but even conscripts now can kill 2 models of pgrens before losing and grens just don't have the numbers (and durability) to survive that long.
6 May 2019, 15:44 PM
#173
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2

Imo Grens should be removed or replaced by panzergrenadiers as mainline infantry for ostheer like in the first coh, although weak at first they should atleast be better than the current grens and they become better and get abilities to increase their utility as you tech up.

I thought axis are supposed to have superior elite infantry but lesser numbers than allied infantry but in its current state grens are just better conscripts but even conscripts now can kill 2 models of pgrens before losing and grens just don't have the numbers (and durability) to survive that long.


While a sound idea for a nostalgic fuck like me it would sadly require a huge overhaul of the Ostheer tech and not to mention reshuffle of the units.

The Panzer Elite pretty much had no other infantry apart from the Panzergrenadiers who were they're everything basically, besides team weapons of course. They also relied heavily on light vehicles and didn't have any good tanks apart from the Panther, I didn't really consider the Panzer IV F1 Stubby a proper tank.
7 May 2019, 12:08 PM
#174
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5

Put grenade, mg and five man behind a fuel+MP upgrade and why not. Tommies also cost more pop cap 5man, so you would need to up gren pop cost too.

Maybe Brits can get a mortar and rocket arty if we are going the clone route.

Grens can't just get this stuff for free while being cheaper out the gate.


I've always said the only way to stop the bitching is by making all factions mirror stats
of each other. People don't want that? Well, enjoy your continuous bitching that "I got all
these perks, but other factions got other perks, and I not only want to keep my perks, but
I also need any and all perks everyone else has, too - That is the only way this game can
be balanced. If Tigers come earlier than T34/76 and cost the same and are more spammable -
without Tigers being nerfed, of course".
7 May 2019, 12:10 PM
#175
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5

Imo Grens should be removed or replaced by panzergrenadiers as mainline infantry for ostheer like in the first coh, although weak at first they should atleast be better than the current grens and they become better and get abilities to increase their utility as you tech up.

I thought axis are supposed to have superior elite infantry but lesser numbers than allied infantry but in its current state grens are just better conscripts but even conscripts now can kill 2 models of pgrens before losing and grens just don't have the numbers (and durability) to survive that long.


Remove Grenadiers, have PzGrenadiers instead, and bolster PzGrenadiers to 6 models, remove bunkers,
and remove MG42 entirely, you mean?
7 May 2019, 12:32 PM
#176
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

Currently allies just blob against wehr easily.


Ost has the best MG in the game, and it's in their hq. They are literally better equipped to deal with blobs than anyone else

Why don't we see where they are after all these core changes before we give a huge buff to their mainlines too. It's not like they're conscript level bad
7 May 2019, 14:56 PM
#177
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783



Ost has the best MG in the game, and it's in their hq. They are literally better equipped to deal with blobs than anyone else

Why don't we see where they are after all these core changes before we give a huge buff to their mainlines too. It's not like they're conscript level bad


That is true, but no one wants to rely always on MG. Hopefully Pzgrens come on the Infanterie Kompanie or After Battle Phase 1. Since there is not any clear resolution for Grens.
7 May 2019, 15:06 PM
#178
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



That is true, but no one wants to rely always on MG. Hopefully Pzgrens come on the Infanterie Kompanie or After Battle Phase 1. Since there is not any clear resolution for Grens.

Its still nice to at least have an MG to rely on.

Tbh I'd like to experiment with a new vet 1 ability that gives grens slightly more accuracy against suppressed models to synergize with the mg42 and be able to better punish blobs as a pair. The mg42 is a fantastic weapon but we lose dps when it's commanding an area due to the modifiers of Supression. Might not be quite what you are looking for but ist is designed around combined arms, the beautiful new vet ability for pgrens reinforces them as mechanized infantry, it would be nice to see grens amp up their ability to support their star weapon team a bit better.
7 May 2019, 16:54 PM
#179
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Its still nice to at least have an MG to rely on.

Tbh I'd like to experiment with a new vet 1 ability that gives grens slightly more accuracy against suppressed models to synergize with the mg42 and be able to better punish blobs as a pair. The mg42 is a fantastic weapon but we lose dps when it's commanding an area due to the modifiers of Supression.


Something like this is much more reasonable. Buffing grens in any more direct way is going too far IMO. Conscripts are trash and their buff is locked behind t4 and prevents doctrinal upgrades. Giving grens a cover bonus from the get-go is asking too much I think
7 May 2019, 22:50 PM
#180
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Or we factor in the additional cost of bolstering and weapon racks spread accross the four or so tommie squads an army will reasonably consist of. With all the extra resource and pop cap spent on british mainline you can bring out a support weapon or two for the tommies to be bad against.


That's not a fair comparison because Grenadiers don't even have the option to be bolstered or run around with 2 Machine Guns, no matter how many resources you have you will never get these things. It's the same problem Conscripts have, lacking any weapon upgrades while going up against LMG and StuG troops.

The way I see it is Grenadiers are the gold standard that everything else is balanced around, so maybe Bolstered LMG Sections need toned down and Conscripts need a weapon upgrade, rather than changing Grenadiers in any drastic manner.
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